To think that SOME high earners don't work that hard?

[Usernamemcname]

I'm a domestic cleaner. The people I clean for are usually quite well off, five bedrooms in a posh suburb of an expensive city. They are often in whilst I clean, sometimes they come back whilst I'm here.
I see a lot and I know they are in quite high paid jobs. Yet they always seem to be 'working from home' also known as fannying about the kitchen a lot and playing X Box. A lot of them either start late (10am so they miss the traffic) and finish early. One dad picks his daughter up from school every day even though his wife is at home!
I was always told that you have to work hard to get what you want in life, so why do I have to work two jobs whilst my partner works 45+ hours and we just scrape by? What have these people done to be so lucky? They're not old, seem around my age, what jobs do they do and why can't I do them, I have a degree.
Life just seems unfair sometimes. Unless it's a doctor, I'm sure I could have a crack at it.

When I cam across this thread I really hoped @Xenia would be on it as she has a similar career to mine and is much better both at explaining it and at encouraging women to go for the higher paid options.

This is going to be long - sorry.

I'm going to start by addressing the question in your OP. One of the things many people don't recognise is that some work is about doing and some work is about thinking. Thinking can be about having 30 years experience and being able to apply it quickly as other PPs have said. Thinking can also be about creativity. I had a career in combining the two. Early in my career I spotted a technical area that was quite niche but which I found really interesting as it combined lots of different areas of law with meeting lots of different people. On top of my training and working long hours of tedious drudge work I spent about 2 hours a day on technical reading, marking scripts etc. I looked at all the job ads in the journals I read and identified the recruitment agencies that seemed to advertise the jobs in that field. When I was ready to move into that area I was able to do so as someone with a lot of technical expertise. The job required being able to combine that expertise with the creative ability to come up with often unusual solutions to problems. So a lot of my time was spent thinking. I might well be thinking when I was pottering around in the kitchen or even (heaven forbid) whilst I was inanely playing candy crush or going for a run. Sometimes I would wake up at 2.30am with a brilliant idea and need to go downstairs and work through it with the legislation. I doubt my cleaner realised that was what was going on - my nanny didn't until she found me at 2 weeks overdue with DC2 scribbling away at 4am... Now I'm self indulgently a part time academic - my cleaner might well think I'm wasting time on my ipad - actually I'm reading academic journals online.

Enough about me - let's look at you. You have respectable A levels and a 2:1 in English, you don't say where from. You speak 2 languages - is one of them a mainstream European one or is a more niche? You have a lot of people facing experience and administration experience. Sadly, your CV shows someone who moves around a lot in quite low level positions which is a bit of a red flag for a prospective employer. YOu also sound a bit passive - wanting to know how other people are lucky when you work just as hard. Unless your employer's father or godfather owns the business they probably didn't get lucky, they probably did a lot of research to find their career, filled in a lot of application forms attended a lot of interviews and received a lot of rejection letters. But they didn't give up, nor (I'm sorry) did they come home and flop on the sofa at 8pm - they might well have had a rubbish job to pay the rent, but found time to put in the hours on the job application process in their non working time. That is the bit of their career you don't see.

You need to start asking questions. Ask your employers what they do and how they got there. Despite what a lot of people are saying on this thread, it often isn't the case that you need a specific degree to get a particular job - qualifying as a lawyer takes longer if you didn't read law (I read that "useless low paying subject" called history - but I did really well at it and was able to show that the skills it taught me - reading a lot of material in a short amount of time, consolidating it all into an argument, writing it down clearly and then defending it with my tutor playing devil's advocate three times a fortnight - were very useful). Ask questions of yourself - you aren't that keen on the private sector - is that commerce in general or just the big firms and private health? What skills and experience do you have that might make you unique? Could you apply for an office management post in a firm where your language skills would be useful? Could you apply for an admin role in a charity? If your second language is mainstream might you consider teaching - language teachers are quite scarce? As you have experience in the MH sector you might look at the SENCo side of teaching - where I am a decent SENCo is like gold dust? If you want to work in the public sector then look at what public sector jobs are available - civil service, local government etc. Are there more senior roles in the NHS that look and sound attractive? Ask someone doing them if they could spare you 30 minutes to talk about their job and how they got there?

I don't want anything handed to me on a plate but you must admit that having parents at home who know about applying for graduate schemes, scholarships, internships is a bloody huge advantage in this life when you're 23 and not sure what to do next!

Sure. But many, probably most people don’t have that either. I’m probably not what you would consider a high earner, certainly not compared to others on the thread, but neither of my parents had any clue about the stuff you’ve mentioned, neither went to university, neither ever earned much more than NMW. But in this day and age there’s so much opportunity out there, educated parents are a leg up but you can make up for lost ground yourself.

"I am taking responsibility" and "No one will give me a chance." don't co-exist comfortably. I don't think they're mutually exclusive but somewhere along the line there's a missed connection here.

My parents did not go to uni; they had no idea how to apply, what the costs were, how to get scholarships or grants. I had no connections. My parents didn't work in firms or even a regular company where I could get an "in" -- dad's a small business owner and mum stayed at home. I did not get onto a graduate scheme. I've never had a scholarship or held an internship. I did a degree similar to yours. My early career history looks like yours.

Then I picked a career, took steps to gain experience (unpaid to start, then paid as a freelancer, in addition to any job I could get), and made tactical career moves based on strategies similar to what Velveteen has outlined. I did additional work and earned post-grad qualifications. Now I have a more flexible, higher paid job. No mysteries. I interview well, am willing to take risks, and put myself forward all of the time.

That is what I think of when I think "I am taking responsibility." Another poster said it better, that it sounds like you're mistaking activity for progress. If you are achieving all of these great things training others, arranging fundraisers, making connections then why aren't you putting that on your CV and going out and parlaying that into another job?

You mention working in the nhs.. From an insider view my sense is that it’s very hard to move up in client facing roles if you don’t have a health profession qualification. I have a degree and did post grad plus professional qualification to get a job as like you I didn’t find a post grad scheme that suited me.

I now have ten years plus professional experience and hold a lot of professional responsibilities which would not be comparatible to thar I’d expect a member of staff on £9 an hour to manage. The responsibility is not just for what I do but also for what those under my supervision do and the service. While I work hard I probably don’t look like I’m working crazily hard for my wage but that’s because I have over ten years experience and skills which I utilise to do my job effectively. Someone would not be able to walk into my job and do without this. That’s what I’m paid for. And yep you guessed as it’s the nhs I’m not on a massive wage just a very normal one. But I’m in a position to continue to progress and no one has handed this to me.

My advice would be work in a sector where you can build on your skills and there is realistic potential to move up without others help but just through learning, skill building and applying for realistic opportunities you are qualified for as they come up. .. this may or may not be the nhs or cafe or cleaning etc but staying in a career where there is no chance of progression won’t see you progress.

User just said at 23 she graduated and then had to think about careers. If the planning can start a lot earlier that helps. I read law and went to uinversity 209 and graduated at 20. I was going to my 25 interviews aged 19 so was already many years ahead of others simply because I skipped a year at school (not common or necessary of course) and I read law which means you don't then have t o do (currently) an exatra year of study on top of yuor post grad year.

I also worked out commerical law paid better than crikinal law. So although I did enjoy studying criminal law and family law I deliberately picked business law options. I moved hundreds of miles to London and my husband followed me as we know I would earn more for work because I knew London firms paid more than firms in the NE. I tink I got my job at Slaughter and May (a law firm) partly because I won the year prize in competition law and they were recruiting when I qualified in that area - I was not kept on by my previous London firm after my 2 years training by the way - I mention these things because I had had a fair few "failures" - it has not been some sunny uplands easy path. In fact failing can make people try harder and it was nice to get into what might be the best law firm in the UK after not being kept on at a ""worse" firm.

So I suppose the point of my latest post is try to pick higher paid careers. My son was a post man for 3 years and now drives a super market delivery van very happily and he does not want a different job
and his sisters are London business lawyers. Loads of people are happy with lower pay of course but if you want higher pay then picking jobs where you can earn a lot and then working towards the place you want to be can be a good idea.

So my suggestion of NHS procurement might work but i suppose we would need to know what role user is currently in the NHS.

I make a fair bit of money writing by the way and I know user has an English degree so may be there is a route there to make some extra money - eg try bidding for editing or writing work on sites like peopleperhour.com. I used to give talks in my area outside of work for a while on annual leave sometimes. I have given 1700 since about 1991. This is the first year I have chosen not to give any.

(Thanks, Londonmummy, yours is a useful post too)

@Xenia - you're welcome

I agree with what your saying. I think a lot of it is luck, and how your life has panned out.
I went to un, and i havent been able to use it and I'm a housewife now. I've done nothing with my education and have no career. If I return to work it will be cleaning, stacking shelves etc, hard work, low pay.

My husband messed about throughout teenage years and left school and college with no qualifications (I've been with him since 16). He worked as a fork lift truck driver for years working nights. It affected his health. One day he decided to start studying in a field that interested him, he was lucky and managed to get a job low paid but would give him the experience he needed. He's now climbed the career ladder and is a high earner and is senior management. He is very knowledgeable in his field but he really doesn't have to do that much now. It's all meetings, lunches, delegating. He can work from home whenever he wants meaning an hour of work, the rest spent doing what he wants. He gets all expenses paid. A car. No discipline procedure for time off sick etc. He picks his own hours. Comes and goes as he pleases. I often feel quite jealous of the perks he now has that come with his role and I often say the people who work on the production line in his factory work much, much harder than he does.

*I went to Uni

For example my posh mate (she knows I call her that) got a job at 15 working in the same business as her dad, earning £18. At 15 I was the person who handed the raw battered fish to the person who fried it.

But lots of us dont.

I didn't. Single parent family, mentally I'll mother. I had to research how to write a CV, a cover letter, interview techniques, courses.

No one I know helped me get in the door.

In my current role, you could say someone gave me a chance or I was lucky. But the headhunter found me because I have put hours of work into my CV. Keep it current. Look at new courses, to make mu CV more appealing. Post it in job sites.

I was found and given a chance because my CV is good, current and took a lot of work and research. I am paid well because I have put years of effort in, doing things that improve my CV. Spoken to people in high earning jobs. So was I given a chance and lucky, or did years of effort just pay off?

Also certain things I dont do. Like not done a course cause it gives you a yellow belt, because in the real world, no one actually cares if you can prove you can do the job instead.

OP, even in your latest posts, you're still not taking responsibility and that will probably limit your ability to move forward. Enough people are telling you this, that you might want to take a step back and think they have a point.

I didn't grow up with advantages either and neither of my parents went to university. I have always been very clear on the big picture. I wanted to have a good job with financial stability and was prepared to make sacrifices to get there. So, in an ideal world, I would have chosen English and French A levels as I loved both those subjects, I didn't do them because i couldn't see how i was going to make money out of doing those subjects (nobody had to tell me that, it just made sense). We didn't have Google back in the 1980s/early 1990s but we did have books that told you about different types of careers and how much everyone earned. I got one of those books out from the library and paid attention.

I chose a harder university subject because it would be more challenging and i also thought it would be good in the long term.

After 2 years i didn't want to do that subject as a career anymore, as i realised that my ability to progress in a career in that field would be limited so I changed tack. I applied for summer internships and remember writing 63 letters by hand over a 2/3 week period to companies to ask if they had a summer vacation scheme. I got 60 rejection letters over the next few weeks.

In my final year, I decided that i wanted a career in the City, but didn't know anything about business. I remember pretty much abandoning all my lectures and spending all day at the library and not going out for much of that term while I read books on business and read back copies of the Financial Times on microfiche - that might not mean anything to you! It meant that i was credible when I was interviewed.

I started work at the age of 14, there was no pocket money and my parents needed help to pay the bills. When i started my career after university, believe me there are many reasons that I could have given up but I didn't, I stuck at it. It was fucking hard work - I worked an average of about 80 hour weeks for the first 15 years of my career. I don't work that hard any more but my job is intense. As someone else said i now get paid for what i know (25 years of specialist knowledge in my field) and the sensible commercial decisions that i make in the heat of the moment and for that I earn 7 figs. I don't sit on my Xbox but i do occasionally Mumsnet during my working day

I have 5 mantras that helped me: 1) I needed to work harder than everyone else to create a level playing field with the men 2) If i put my mind to anything i can do it. There are no boundaries to what i can achieve 3) Giving up is not an option 4) I always have an eye on where I want to be in 3 - 5 years time, have a plan to get there and stick to it, unless there is a good reason not to and 5) I am always well presented! I don't know about the 5th one, but on the first 4 things these are not things that come out of your posts. As others have said, you have flitted about in your career and haven't had a plan. How do you turn this around? Are you going to make a new plan now? Have you plotted out how you could go from where you are now to where you could be in 5 years now? Are you taking extra courses or do you need to retrain?

Rufus, it may be slightly unfair on your son though

Thank you xenia it was more the positivity of your post, you kept going and were a success even though you feel there may have been issues with your interview technique

Continuing good advice above. Onthe look well presented look at what people wear and how they act go be in particular jobs and try to copy them. You said a friend was posh - may be go on youtube and change your accent so you sound posh too if you think that would help with jobs (depends on the job whether that kind of thing matters but being able to fit in with others even if you hate it is necessary in a lot of jobs.

Some jobs will let you tain on the job. Eg Leigh Day is offering a few solicitor apprenticeships which last 5 years and get you qualified however you need to be black and have taken A levels in London and have at least BBB. See if you can find anythingl ike that which fits your own profile - www.leighday.co.uk/Careers/Work-Experience starts on £21,500 but goes up to typical trainee solicitor level in years 4 and 5. which I am guessing may be £40k and might well be £60k or even in some firms £100k (e.g. Linklaters) when you qualify after those 5 years.

I agree up to a point, as DH (engineer) earns around 3 x my fairly decent salary (civil service), yet we both work equally as hard, in equally stressful professional roles, in fact it could be argued that mine is higher stress.

But I imagine our cleaner also has a skewed view of us working from home, mainly because we are allowed to arrange our hours to suit and so can pop out to assembly, or pilates. What our cleaner doesn't see is that I often start international calls at 6am, and DH often has web meetings at 11pm, and we might only spend 2 evenings together a week! On top of that we both travel for weeks at a time, when we work 18+ hour days, including weekends. No overtime paid of course.

Sorry I know this is off topic and I promise I am taking everything in and am listening to the advice but @Xenia my posh friend presents herself terribly! Greasy hair, body odour, un-ironed clothes. Does posh trump presentation? We worked together and she used to be a band 5 admin whilst I'm a band 3. So she was on considerably more money.
I've always presented myself well, especially as a receptionist for a private dentist which is all about appearances, but it doesn't seem to count for anything in the NHS.

Sorry OP but most people go to comps and don't have great career advice. It sounds like you aren't taking responsibility and feel that everyone else has had a leg up. It's just not true for most people.

You need to stick at a job long enough to get extra experience/do additional courses/get a promotion. Find out how your manager got their job.

I said a few pages back- why not do a PGCE. You could teach English as well as eg Spanish if that's the language you speak. They are crying out for language teachers.

You could set up a conversation class in your other language if your written language skills aren't good. You could advertise as an english tutor.

You need to use your initiative- if your cv is rubbish, google how to make it better. Go onto individual company/charity websites and enquire with their HR departments about openings.

As PP have said- no one is going to flounce into your life and offer you a job. You have to find one yourself. For the first few years it might be dull- but you have to stick at something long enough to actually get promoted or be given a chance.

Sulking about lack of privilege isn't going to help you at all.

it doesn't seem to count for anything in the NHS

Dressing smartly is going to matter much more in private companies where clients are paying. There was a thread a little while ago where someone was pulled up on looking too smart at work and lots of people said that in the non-profit sector they had to be conscious of dressing too smartly and making their underprivileged service-users uncomfortable.

Also, your posh friend had a different CV, more business experience etc too - it seems that was partly attributable to her privileged situation and it would be mad to suggest that privilege plays a part, but it will be the cumulative effects of that privilege (e.g. having had work experience, parental support, better uni, etc) rather than someone thinking 'she's posh, lets promote her'.

So aside from my own personal situation, here's what I think (and I think a lot of you will disagree.) I fundamentally disagree with people earning more than they need because we are not all on an even playing field to begin with. I can name lots of examples of those who are disadvantaged from the very start who probably won't earn enough to even live independently which is very unfair.
1.) the man I met who is a six foot two black guy born in inner city London with mild learning difficulties who was enlisted into a gang aged 9 because he didn't understand that they weren't his friends.
2.) the man who was sexually abused through his childhood whose mum didn't believe him, causing him extreme PTSD.
3.) Lots of people who aren't neurotypical.
4.) Those born to addict, physically ill, mentally ill, abusive or poor parents.

Obviously you could come from one of these backgrounds and become a great success. It's hard though, and the world often doesn't want to help you.
Lots of these posts show an ignorance about the inequality that so many face. Great if you're a very forward thinking, innovative child who rides to the library (ours has been shut down btw) and researches careers aged 11 but for most of us, we need some guidance. I've met a lot of clueless middle upper class kids in my life whose parents write their CV's and apply for graduate schemes on their behalf, ring in favours with friends, offer work experience swaps with other well connected people.
A great example would be the daughter of my ex boss. She was 17 and hadn't got into uni with her D, E, E A levels. Her mum got her a paid work placement with a fashion buyer friend, she is probably earns far more than me now.

Also, IMO, people with more privilege (of whatever type) generally tend to be more resilient and are less likely to take job/training scheme rejections personally. This means they'll be more likely to hang in there until they get accepted for a job, whereas if you've felt like an outsider your whole life, it's far harder to keep on going when companies are telling you no.

That's obviously not the only reason people can do well, and this thread shows lots of people have worked hard to get to where they are. Although I'm from a poor immigrant family, I was fortunate to feel secure in terms of food, shelter, education and emotional support and that enabled me to be comfortable taking risks and following my own path.

i‘m probably one of them. what you don’t see:

• many, many years of 70 hour weeks that i’ve done previously
• early morning/late night/weekend phone calls /meetings (japan, westcoast US, australia, ...)
• its often an on/off pattern. crazy activity for a couple of weeks (70+ hours), followed by pretty lazy weeks
• travelling
• responsibility. huge budgets, and people’s futures.

I absolutely agree that the playing field isn’t level at all to start with, and those situations you’ve named are good examples of those at a disadvantage.

I can’t help but think though that you want everyone here to tell you how unfair it is that you don’t earn more, when it really seems that you’ve made life decisions and choices that you have put you out of the way of possible promotion.

I've met a lot of clueless middle upper class kids in my life whose parents write their CV's and apply for graduate schemes on their behalf, ring in favours with friends, offer work experience swaps with other well connected people.

If you know all these well connected people why haven’t you pulled in a favour and tried to get in the door that way?

@ShirleyPhallus not at all! I've been lazy at times, flakey, not prepared to move. I've chosen courses that I've liked, jobs that I've enjoyed, men that don't earn very much money. Yes I work hard now. I also like working ten minutes from home and finishing at 3 every day. I'm sure the high earners I work for envy me too sometimes.

If you know all these well connected people why haven’t you pulled in a favour and tried to get in the door that way?

Probably because the OP feels she's looking in at them from the outside. It's really hard to ask someone for a favour when you've nothing to offer in return and don't feel worthy in the first place.

The way it works (on the quiet nowadays) in my industry is that a client will ask for their DC to do work experience at a firm, then a little way down the line, the partner at the firm's brother might use client's chalet for a ski weekend or something.

@LonginesPrime exactly. Also it wasn't like we were friends. Usually I was working for their parents, cleaning for their parents, friends with their poor neighbours next door!

Sorry, if you were working for their parents or friends with their poor neighbours next door how on earth do you know they’re “clueless middle class kids” who have no talent of their own so have to rely on their parents connections?!

*I absolutely agree that the playing field isn’t level at all to start with, and those situations you’ve named are good examples of those at a disadvantage.

I can’t help but think though that you want everyone here to tell you how unfair it is that you don’t earn more, when it really seems that you’ve made life decisions and choices that you have put you out of the way of possible promotion.*

^^ Couldn't agree more.

It seems much easier for you to lash out than take the good and free advice onboard.