Is this a red flag? I might be overreacting to his style of arguing

[OhPrudence]

Whenever my husband and I argue about anything, he doesn't make the effort to see my point of view. A lot of the time, his argument will be about my tone, or me being 'out of order'. It derails whatever detail we're talking about into a conversation about how I speak, and I end up feeling like I'm not allowed to have any/express emotions.

I accept that sometimes I don't say the right things, but I'm very good at reflecting on disagreements and I will go and apologise when I'm out of order, and try to see his point of view.

This all reads as very vague, sorry, it's really difficult to get my point across. Tonight he said something that upset me (a sarcastic comment that I took to be a criticism of my parenting), but when I said it upset me he then said something along the lines of "no, no, don't be ridiculous". I did then escalate the argument by telling him that "I do everything". It then became an argument about him saying he does more around the home than some other men we know. I don't do everything. But I do ~75% 🤷‍♀️ After short time I told him where I had overstepped in our argument but that his sarcastic comment still upset me. He didn't take responsibility for anything.

I don't know if this is a difference in our arguing style, or whether he is deflecting every time so that I can't express how I feel, or disagree with anything he says. I feel like we always get pulled away from the essence of an argument. Though in sure if he were writing here he would say that I'm just grumpy all the time.

I don't think we argue excessively, but we have a gorgeous toddler and the parenting challenges that brings and have had a hard time with multiple miscarriages this year.

On its own, should concentrating on tone, or derailing a disagreement be something I should see as a red flag? Happy to hear if I'm overthinking this.

Just bumping this in case anyone can advise

Without being there It's really hard to say for sure, but I'd bet good money It's his way of deflecting.

It's so very frustrating not being heard. My ex used to deflect by picking on any tiny irrelevant detail and focusing on that.

e.g.

Me: That thing that you did on Tuesday really upset me
Ex: It wasn't Tuesday it was Wednesday
Me: It was Tuesday and anyway that's irrelevant
Ex: No It's not

etc. Obviously a simplified version but you get the gist. It's partly why he's an ex!

My current DP also deflects massively. He finds criticism very hard to take so he pulls all sorts of mental gymnastics to deflect. It's a massive issue tbh.

I'm not sure I have any good advice other than you do need to feel your are being heard (genuinely) or it will store up a lot if resentment eventually.

Could you talk to your DH about this when you're not in the middle if an argument already? Would he listen then?

Yeah I think it's a red flag. He doesn't accept your feelings either, he says you're ridiculous and dismisses you when you're upset.

If he never apologises or admits he's wrong then it's not a good sign either

Personally I would say that if he can't or won't see your point of view , or derails the argument to focus on personal aspects of your 'behavior' then that could be bullying behaviour. MN can be very quick to say emotional abuse but it can also be very eye opening to post on here and realise that your emotional reality is not respected, that you are walking on egg shells and that you are bending over backwards to please when nothing is good enough. Is that's what's going on for you?

I would ask the following- are these high stress arguments in a context of a difficult time ?

Does he otherwise show you empathy, compassion and care?

I am not sure what 'out of order' means. Ideally differences can be explored without being viciously nasty. But working together to look after a home and a toddler - and dealing with disappointment and loss - is tough. Frustration can easily build up. I think one has to be allowed to have emotions. In a caring relationship partners don't want the other to be unhappy. They'll try to listen, to change and adapt.

OP, I have noticed that men are, when defensive, very emotional and can be aggressive too. This derails their thinking ability. Your DP probably can’t keep up with your reasoning and, if he can, he will be too busy being defensive to even hear the argument properly.

When men are in fight or flight mode their hippocampus is overwhelmed and it will take twenty minutes for them to calm down an think rationally so walk away and give your man time to recover.

My DH is the best man in the world but he only ever wants to win an argument regardless of whether he is right or not.

I think you need to discuss ithe way he responds at a time when you are getting on well (hopefully there are times like that!).
Is it worse since having the baby? Maybe he is struggling with some of the changes (not an excuse but if he used to be different things are more likely to improve)

I do think you need to avoid arguing. Resist the temptation to criticise other things. You said he derailed the argument but it sounds as if it was you who brought up the housework when the problem was the sarcastic comment. Perhaps you are feeling fed up yourself and just want to have a go about all his shortcomings. It might be better to find another outlet for these feelings - rant at a trusted friend or go for a run.

Try and be cheerful rather than grumpy, pick which things bother you most and discuss calmly, let everything else go.

Teacher22 that's not true! And hugely sexist.

OP part of this hinges on how he is otherwise. When you're talking about your life can he deal with emotions and empathise with you? Does he listen to you - do you feel listened to?

The bottom line is he's not engaging with you in the argument though. For whatever reason he's more interested in being right above all caring about you in those moments. Maybe try discussing it at a time when you're both relaxed.

Essentially I'd say it's a red flag that may have a solution, but don't waste your energy and life hoping it'll change. And while avoiding arguing would be good, if that means you then always have to bite your tongue and his behaviour ends up unchallengeable, then definitely don't do that.

Thanks everyone. After yesterday's argument - started by him making a sarcastic comment to me - he slept in the spare room, even though I tried to reconcile. I honestly can't understand how he has made himself the wronged party in this instance, and I'm not rising to it. He's gone to work early now anyway.

I don't really know what to do about this now, I think he tries to get me to avoid confrontation but it ends in him being able to say what he wants to, and me feeling silenced or like I'm always the one in the wrong for reacting to something he says that I disagree with. I will try to talk about it with him when we're not in the middle of an argument. Though I suspect he will turn it into an argument.

Not sure I have the energy for this.

Agree also with pp that many men find it hard to apologise or admit they are wrong, so avoid backing him into a corner.
He is probably wondering how a misjudged comment ended up in a huge argument and doesn't see what he's done wrong. Whereas saying the comment was upsetting and not arguing further would have given him the chance to think about that and modify his behaviour.

I don't think women should have to be permanently 'cheerful' while having very low standards for male behaviour. It's about having agreed reasonable expectations for who does what. It's about both partners cutting each other a little slack, but also being willing to have difficult discussions about what needs to change.

@chocolatelover45 I agree that i made things worse by saying "I do everything" but it was in the context of him criticising my parenting on a day that he hadnl barely lifted a finger, but been present in the house. I also agree with you that I'm generally fed up and that it's entirely likely that this comes through in arguments!

Yes, it’s a red flag.

He does it because it works very effectively to shut you up. He never has to address his own behaviour id he can turn the conversation to nitpicking at you every time.

I think the key is whether he does this every time or if there are times when you’re able to be heard and if it is indicative about his attitude to you generally - does he think your opinions are worth listening to?

Op I agree it's very galling to be criticised for some little thing when you are doing all the work so I do sympathise!
Not suggesting either that you just put up with poor behaviour. Was more saying that focusing on one thing at a time, briefly stating your point of view, then leaving it at that, might be more likely to get the desired effect. Also, maintaining cheerfulness and a sense of humour will make you feel better too. You sound like you need a break - can you meet up with friends or get out for some exercise?
This is assuming that overall you love your husband and he has good points that make it worth making the effort. I find that remembering how great the good times are really helps when going through a rough patch

When me and DH got married we had lessons at the church to prepare us, and what was really useful was that they taught us how to argue. It was done in a very low key fun way, at a time when we thought we would never argue, but it has stayed with us for life and although we still argue we do it constructively, or think about it and talk about it later.
Can you get some kind of counselling? I know it sounds a bit OTT, but it's really good way to learn how to communicate properly in a neutral environment.

Not sure I have the energy for this

Yes. On top of doing 75% and getting criticism.

Can you sit with him and address the house work balance?
Discuss how you divide up work so that he takes 50% when he's at home.
Also, when he criticises something, don't defend yourself. Just tell him he's responsible for it from now on. And stick to it.

A better answer to his sarcastic comment, while addressing the tone, is to ask him why he needs to make the sarcastic comment of simply asking him not to because that's not good communication. Leave how it makes you feel out of it. Instead focus on him doing it.

At some point, it might be worth investing in a marriage counsellor, before the arguments get too tiring and you reach tipping point.

Thank you so much for these responses. Reading these comments is making me realise that his style is controlling (not sure if consciously or not) but also that I have lost my sense of humour and am generally exhausted and quick to argue so probably not much fun to be around. It's like all my energy and good humour goes into the time with my toddler. My husband, tbf, probably sees very little of that nicer side of me.

I think it is a red flag, really. No one likes to be pulled up on things they're doing wrong but someone who refuses to even consider their part in causing an argument will always put their feelings first over yours. The deflecting is a way of dismissing you. It's extremely unlikely to change because the fundamental issue is that he does not feel that he has to look at his poor behaviour, as he is always in the right.

It sounds like a vicious circle of you not feeling heard and him shutting you down and you getting more frustrated
It’s not a healthy way to handle anything. He has now shut down so you feel unable to talk to him about it so it’s is definitely controlling
I agree with counselling to try and improve communication

Why is it wrong to point out you do 75% of the work? That would be the only thing I spoke about, I'd be a broken fucking record until it changed

On its own, should concentrating on tone, or derailing a disagreement be something I should see as a red flag?

It’s certainly frustrating and a very common tactic when someone is on the defensive. It’s how feminism has been so effectively misrepresented by men over the years; by criticising its style of delivery rather than its message. And the true reason is that they don’t like the message. Like any argument, if you don’t like the message, dissect the messenger (style of speech, hair, personal life, mental state, etc) till she loses heart and shuts up. Sounds like this is what your DH is doing, not necessarily consciously but doing it nonetheless.

Just calmly and consistently bring the topic of conversation back to the core message (once you’ve worked out what that is) and repeatedly state what you want to change.

He should not be making sarcastic comments. Unless you enjoy that! A healthy person would want their spouse to feel supported and happy, not picked at and undermined. If him being sarcastic is upsetting to his wife he should learn to keep his bloody mouth shut. He should care more about your happiness than getting one over on you.

I'd stop ttc with him until this is sorted out. Sounds like a horrible way to live.

First of all, it sounds like he started with a sarcastic comment. It hurt your feelings, you lashed out, and it went downhill from there. It was unkind of him to make such a comment, especially when he knows what stress you’re under, and I think a lot of people would lash out like you did. The problem is just that it’s impossible (for me) to tell if it’s a red flag for controlling without seeing the argument.

You’ve mentioned that he argues about your tone, but not what his argument about the tone is. You’ve said it leaves you feeling like you can’t express any emotion. This is really tough to say without being present, because on the one hand, it COULD be a red flag. It could be deflection. On the other hand, you could be yelling in his face, and then tone is very important. Some people really don’t respond well to yelling at all, just as an example.

The PP who mentioned how important it is to learn to argue is VERY correct. I don’t think anyone here can tell you with any certainty what’s going on in your husband’s mind. But a counselor may be able to help you both learn to argue in a more productive and less hurtful manner, with less emotional blackmailing (I’ve always felt that going to sleep on the sofa was just blackmail - they want you to beg them to come back to bed, or realize that sleeping alone is worse than giving up your stand on the argument, so that was wrong of him too, in my opinion; it’s almost always the man who does this). If he won’t consider counseling, then I think it’s MUCH more of a red flag. If he wanted to repair things, he’d consider it. If he’s deflecting you, he wouldn’t. Counseling may also be worthwhile as tensions may already be sky high in your household if you’ve gone through multiple miscarriages this year - that’s such an incredible emotional strain that can’t be discounted. I’m so sorry you’re going through that. I think that makes it even more important to consider counseling, whether your husband goes or not.