To think circumcision for baby boys should be illegal if not done for medical reasons

[Tyarami]

I saw a thread on here a couple of days ago and it got me to wondering why on earth circumcision is still legal for infant males despite FGM being banned.

To me there is no difference, both practises are barbaric unless of course the circumcision is medically necessary. I'm talking about the parents and doctors who allow and inflict this because of cultural tradition.

Why is it ok to do this to an infant male even though FGM is illegal, what is the difference really? To me there is none and would be interested to hear from others about their perspectives.

AIBU to be of the opinion that parents and medical professionals should be prosecuted for inflicting this on infant boys who obviously cannot consent, because of cultural conditioning.

I don’t know the UK stats but only 9-11% of Australian boys are circumcised. Those who are tend to be for religious/cultural reasons. That’s a massive cultural shift and there’s therefore a whole heap of circumcised adult men who are not choosing this for their newborn sons. Why do you think that is?

www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/baby-dies-after-circumcision-4242492

Sad case of a baby bleeding to death after circumcision.

Circumcise, don't circumcise, it's up to you. Parents make all kinds of choices about their kids, from names to vaccination to circumcision. Medically, it's a wash. There are just as many benefits to it as drawbacks. . That makes it different from FGM, which has a purely negative health impact on girls. Socially, it is traditionally a mark of high esteem for males, while FGM is always a mark of subjugation for females. So that is different, too.

Attitudes change and evolve

This are still lead by men in many countries

It's a religious requirement for many? My brothers and Dad are circumcised. They have not suffered lifelong trauma in the same way that female genital mutilation causes.

Any non medically necessary body changing surgery performed on a person unable to consent should be illegal.

If it's not your culture, then it's none of your business.
it isn't part of mine, so my son's weren't done
HTH
YABVVVVU and hopefully nobody will give a flying fuck what you think.

If it's not your culture, then it's none of your business

What a depressing attitude.

Drabarni we need top legalise fgm then.

Also allow for 'honour'killings and child marriage.

I could go on.

Do you really believe that.

I have two sons who are NOT circumcised but I come from a country where it is encouraged because of the prevalence of STIs and HIV. Being circumcised reduces the risk HIV infection by up to 60% which is huge! I’ve left that country now and live in the UK so for me there was no reason to do it. However my SIL who lives in the UK decided to do it just so the boys are the same as their dad. She actually took the boys to a rabbi who did it in his living room.. horrific! They aren’t even Jewish.

In cultures where men refuse to use condoms then there is an argument for circumcising because it offers some protection from HIV and some STIs. This is not an argument for circumcising babies. Particularly in Basingstoke.

I completely agree. It's abhorrent.

I got circumcised a couple of years back at 40. I'd always had pain when retracting the foreskin to the point that we had sex with it in situ. It was only when my wife asked why I didn't retract it that I explained to her how much it hurt. She told me it wasn't normal and I had always just assumed it was because I had no-one to talk to about it. Went to the doctors and it was done within a few weeks.

I wish my parents had had it done for me when I was a baby and that I had the type of relationship in my teens where I could have told them it hurt when I had an erection.

I got into a lot of arguments about this while pregnant, as I was using a message board frequented by Americans. Most of them were having their sons circumcised without a shadow of a doubt. They were referencing things like “what about when he’s an old man and care home staff don’t know how to care for it properly and he gets infections?”. Next up was the smell, belief that they increase risk of STDs and just wanting them to “look like their dad” (beyond bizarre).

I did try to explain that in countries where circumcision is rare, men don’t have stinky gangrenous penises but they were having none of it.

Circumcision rates are falling dramatically on the American coasts and this will spread inland eventually.

I would like to see it banned for anything other than medical reasons. In America babies have died due to blood loss, lost part of all of their penis to infection, etc. It’s horrifying.

You can’t really help but compare it to FGM despite the motives being very different. I have worked with some women who’ve had FGM and while a couple have had the clitoridectomy / infibulation people generally think of, most had much less severe forms - cutting / trimming of labia were the most common. They had pain and trauma but not far removed from the experience of male circumcision. It’s all utterly wrong in my view.

The risk of backstreet circumcision is my main concern, especially as some religious practices involve sucking to stop the blood flow which is such a high risk for infection.

If it's not your culture, then it's none of your business

Oh, right. So FGM is none of our business, nor are cultures where slavery is seen as acceptable.

YANBU. This was beginning to be a bone of contention with my XP during my last pregnancy, when I'd decided no boy of mine would be circumcised unless medically necessary. In the end XP left days before I gave birth to a girl, so it became a non-issue. I think in XP's case the attachment to circumcision was as much due to being American as to being Jewish, whereas in the UK it's more of a minority cultural practice. I think a ban would be justified on child welfare grounds, but it needs to be both politically thinkable and enforceable, and we're not there yet.

The risk of backstreet circumcision is my main concern, especially as some religious practices involve sucking to stop the blood flow which is such a high risk for infection

Good grief that's grim

So FGM, forced marriage, slavery, honour killings etc etc can’t be of any concern to those of us who are white and British because it’s not “ our culture”
If it’s happening in my country it’s my concern

What I think a lot of people can get on board with is that it should be a licensed practitioner who performs the procedure in a suitable environment. Ie a doctor in a hospital. Not some dude in the sitting room.

Haven’t RTFT but I wanted to clear up a few misconceptions. Apologies if this has already been done. For the record, I am Jewish, also American but I’m mostly talking about the Jewish side of things. My DH and I were raised in the Conservative movement but we now identify as Reform Jews, and TBH we are less observant than many. I love bacon. But it is still a very important part of our lives.

There are clearly a lot of things people don’t know about Jewish ritual circumcision and circumcision in general. It’s easy to see it as black and white (“don’t mutilate babies”), but like most hot button issues, it’s complicated. If you want to eradicate baby circumcision you need avoid getting hysterical and try to understand — really understand — what motivates people to circumcise and what it’s actually really like.

1. The practice of brit milah (ritual circumcision) is not a “cultural tradition.” It is a commandment from G-d and it is the symbol of our covenant with G-d. Jewish people see circumcision as completing the male baby’s body, not harming it. I’m not necessarily endorsing that view but i am just saying that no law is going to stop observant Jews from this practice.

Actually most less observant Jews do it too. There are a few who do “naming ceremonies” instead but the majority of Jewish boy babies have been snipped. It’s one of the main tenets of our faith. Even for people who eat bacon and don’t fast on Yom Kippur and don’t even belong to a temple/synagogue. That’s a lot of hearts and minds to change.

Perhaps you could call circumcision a cultural tradition in America as a whole. People do often see it as cleaner and healthier to be circumcised but I think that is changing.

1. Jewish ritual circumcision at 8 days is NOT an “operation.” An older male relative holds the child while the mohel uses a special tool to keep things in place and do a quick snip, which takes, literally, no more than 2-3 seconds. (The baby is often given a dummy dipped in sugar water just before the snip.) By the time the baby starts crying it’s over, and he is comforted quickly by a mum with a waiting breast/bottle. I don’t think there is even any blood but if there is it is a few drops, and it does not appear to cause undue pain to the baby. Obviously we can’t know what a baby feels but most of them are pretty vocal when something’s not right. I’ve had the sad experience of seeing a baby in pain and it was very different. The experience of circumcision is more like an injection — it hurts for a second and then it’s over. (Yes I know it is more invasive than an injection but it’s far from a hernia operation.

In American hospitals obstetricians use a local anesthetic for the procedure but I’m told that’s more to satisfy the parents than anything else.

1. A bris is performed by a mohel, who can be a moonlighting rabbi or urologist but normally is not a doctor. The mohel has been trained and certified from both a religious and health perspective and this is all he does. My understanding is that mohels’ complication rates for circumcision are lower than doctors in hospitals, but in any case complications are rare. Responsible parents of course find a highly trained, experienced mohel. They don’t just hand their baby to any guy with a beard who knocks at the door.

So anyway it’s a lot to think about. I understand how you may want circumcision eradicated but I’m not sure “MAKE A LAW” even scratches the surface.

To be clear, the Brit milah normally happens at home, as part of a joyous family celebration. But if the baby is in hospital it can be done there as long as the baby has been medically cleared.

Absolutely agree with u!

If it’s not an operation what is it?

considering how important it is to jews and muslims, i think its pretty racist to consider making it illegal.

waits for my inbox to go boom with people @ing me