Is it too soon to take the hard line?

[babycatcher411]

Sorry this is probably a long one.

Is it too soon to take ‘the hard line’?

Ds1 started high school this year, and it’s been one hiccup after another. He has not transitioned well from an organisational point of view, but otherwise is thoroughly enjoying it.

He has never been the most organised of children (nor am I as an adult), and I’ve often had to find strategies to help him. He is also a very, very distractible person. This was an issue that was brought up at most parents evenings in primary school.
To put it into perspective DS can make unloading the dishwasher (a pocket money job) take half an hour. And that’s without even having left the room to do anything else.

Since starting high school, DS has been terrible with his morning routine, basic jobs are taking ages to do, and he leaves in the morning usually in a rush having not completed his jobs (he was getting up at 0715, to leave at 0835, so a fair amount of time) which initially were to get dressed and make his bed, pack his bag and make his pack up, have breakfast, feed his rabbits and empty the dishwasher. Of which he was leaving most days having achieved the barest minimum.

He manages to make basic homework’s, which should take maybe up to 30 mins, take hours because he gets distracted and I’m constantly having to remind him to focus.

He has also lost his rugby shirt the day he got it, and kept ‘forgetting’ to go and look for it, or ask about lost property.
Lost his school trousers (after a club), ditto above about going looking for them
He has gone to morning club having forgotten his lunch and his blazer
‘Lost’ his school shoes whilst staying at my mums, which were found under his quilt (which was chucked on the floor), when he assured mum he has looked for them.
He’s left homework at school, so had to request a digital copy of the homework (they have an app to talk to the teachers/for homework deadlines)
He’s forgotten his English and Science homework resulting in x2 detentions (both which were found on his ‘tidy’ bedroom floor)

And I received a text message at 0850 this morning to say ‘I need my English and French homework’. Which I can only presume means he’s left them at home. Meaning 2 more detentions.

I honestly don’t know what to do for him, aside packing his bag for him which isn’t going to help the long term disorganisation.

After his detentions last week, me and my sister spent some time with him talking about how to help him be more organised. We talked about writing a check list he can use when he’s packing his bag (and actively gave him time to go write this list, which he didn’t do).
We set reminders for packing his bag the night before and making his lunch.
We asked him to set morning alarms that will help him get up early enough (he managed to set them for 6:30 PM not AM)
Agreed that feeding/sorting the rabbits, and doing the recycling could be evening jobs not morning jobs.
We did discuss other options, but those were the ones agreed on which would help him.

DP happened to be home still this morning when I received the message re today’s homework, and he said that it’s time to take a hard line, gadget ban all weekend. He thinks the softly softly approach I take/have taken is clearly not helping, and it’s time to take away the fun stuff/the distractions.
I don’t know if this is going to help or hinder.
We are only week 4 of high school, and it’s a big transition for them, but equally he always been terrible with getting his pocket money jobs done (even before high school) and DP thinks I’ve probably let him get away with it too often, so he needs firmer/stricter consequences.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is. Any help or advice would be very gratefully received.

@joxer I like that idea, now you say that, I think I had a time lined list for getting ready when I was younger! That certainly rings a bell

I think you're expecting too much from him. Overseeing him is a great idea. Also take away the pocket money jobs and reintroduce these once he shows he's capable of coping with the essentials.

Also I see this so much now .. that if there’s ever an issue then it’s always “oh he could be on the spectrum “ or now the most recent one of “sounds like dyspraxia “
Sometimes kids just can’t organise themselves , it’s a big leap to go from having everything done for you in primary school to then having to sort your own shit out every day especially high school when you need tons of different books and your own equipment..
My ds was like this , couldn’t organise his way out of a paper bag , still can’t to an extent .. is he autistic?
No ,he just has the “I’ll do it later “ mentality .
According to MN absolutely everyone’s kid has some sort of disorder or syndrome

Do you suspect any SEN or is it just lack of organisation?

There comes a point where they have to fend for themselves. It's up to you as a parent to decide how much scaffolding you can give them. If you think they are taking the piss, reduce the scaffolding and they will have to live with the consequences.

For the dishwasher can you set a short (5 min) timer he has to aim to beat?

For everything else you have to decide if you can/want to help him, or if you think your support is enabling his disorganisation.

According to MN absolutely everyone’s kid has some sort of disorder or syndrome

Not quite people posting about specific problems their DC are having get suggestions that their DC might have a condition causing these problems.

If the ipad and phone are a distraction then ban them for certain times. If you haven't already done this set a time in the evening when he has to hand them over for the night. Then tell him that he can't have them in the morning until all the tasks are done for the day. Then he can focus on getting ready for school, etc.

He has only been at secondary school for a few weeks. Some children are able to organise themselves well and don't need much help. Others need much more support to get there.

DD (Year 8) is good at organising herself but for some reason will write her homework on her hand rather than in her planner. Then wonder why she's forgotten things when she's washed her hands and washed off the homework. I've told her that I won't sign her planner if it doesn't have her homework written in it and she'll just have to have detention. But she's Year 8 and been doing this for a year.

I agree with having a checklist and you supervising him using the checklist appropriately. Kids who are rubbish at organising and planning need to be explicitly taught how to use things like checklists or other planning sids. Just telling them they need to use one is unlikely to lead to success.

Eg "what's the first thing on your checklist? Yes, put the books you need for today in your bag. Off you go and do that. All done? Good. Tick that off your checklist next on your checklist. What's next on the list? Yes, so go and put your pe kit by front door like it says. Have you done it? Good. Tick that off checklist. Right, what's next? etc.

When he is doing this reliable well, you can start to gradually reduce support. Eg, right, you've put the books in your bag, what do you need to do now?" ie, he has to tick this off the list without you prompting. If you reduce support too quickly he may struggle, so slowly, slowly is best. If he can't manage it, go back to giving more support so he has more opportunities to practice using a checklist successfully.

If he wanders off or gets distracted ask him what he is meant to be doing. Remind him as often as necessary. Kids who have difficulty remembering instructions often behave like your ds. So I'd stick to asking him to do one thing at a time. Eg. Get your books. Not, get your books, find your pe kit and brush your teeth.

My only concern with stopping he pocket money jobs, is that he may see that as a punishment because he uses it to get extra data for his mobile and I could see that he would see me as taking that away from him.

I’m also not convinced whether he’s really seeing the detentions as proper punishment or taking them a bit to lightly. They’re an hour (but he’s been let out early for at least one of them), and they have to read, well he loves reading, so when he’s talked about them, he’s been a bit blasé about them.
But that said, when I was at high school, forgotten homework was a comment (3 made a detention), so the punishment was lesser.

For goodness sake. Feeding the rabbits, fair enough, but having to empty the dishwasher in the morning when you're getting ready for school is ridiculous.

@Neolara yes that’s probably just what he needs.

which initially were to get dressed and make his bed, pack his bag and make his pack up, have breakfast, feed his rabbits and empty the dishwasher

That is quite a lot to do in the morning. DD is generally slow too, no way she’d manage all this. She does breakfast, makes bed, does the dishwasher. Her bag is packed the night before. If she has a packed lunch, it is generally mostly done the night before.

@JoxerGoesToStuttgart but they are though.
I’ve seen atleast 10 other threads in the last week or two saying these same things just about a different issue and it’s always the same answers .

Mornings here are up, coffee/breakfast, shower, makeup, out the door. Make lunch if haven't made it night before and pack water/lunch into backpack. That's enough for a morning without having blooming chores to do too.

No ideas, just wanted to say that this reminded me of myself in secondary school and just made me feel very sad reading this.

I'm still not great at organisation but have got some great strategies now I'm an adult through advice from my OH and close friends.

IMO, the curve was steep between primary and secondary and some understanding and support from my DParents would have helped.

Also I didn't see detentions as punishment either. I liked the space away from my peers sometimes.

Dd spends morning feeding cats, letting them and dogs out to pee, shower, preening, makeup, hair and out the door. God help us if she was asked to do anything more.

I was very similar to this as a child. I got countless detentions for no homework, no PE kit, etc. My parents punished me at home for losing my keys, being late everywhere, not doing chores, etc. I hated getting punished because I was a goody two shoes who was never intentionally naughty.

I became more organised in my late teens/early 20s. I still set constant alarms (get up, get DC up, eat breakfast, put coats on, leave) in the mornings. EVERYTHING goes onto Google Calendar or it doesn't get done. I pack my work bag the night before, using a checklist on my phone.

I think that working with your DS on his organisation skills might help more than punishment. I would have loved to know these skills earlier!

I have wondered if I'm dyslexic/dyspraxic (I have other symptoms too) but I'm not sure that getting diagnosed now would help. It might help your DS get help at school, though.

So up his data. The current plan isn't working. Stop viewing in terms of punishment and reward and get a routine that works for your son. Then add in extras.

I'm in France and very few children have ADHD or dyspraxia here it seems to be à British thing.

BS. Maybe they are just shit at dx and intolerant? ffs.

OP I've only read your comments on this thread and not other posters so ignore if someone commented-

"get dressed and make his bed, pack his bag and make his pack up, have breakfast, feed his rabbits and empty the dishwashe"

I would be getting him to do his bag and pack up the previous night. Feed his rabbits when he gets home, empty the dishwasher after school too.

In a morning, I get showered, eat, dressed and go to work without much time for anything else- although I do have a passionate and opinionated toddler to contend with

but they are though.

They are what?

Please don’t punish him. My DS1 (now 16) was/is like this. School and the outside world will punish him enough. My lad used to drive us mad, doing all of those things and more. He’s a lovely boy, but the consequences at school escalated with us having to attend a final disciplinary meeting at school and considering ourselves lucky that we were able to keep him in school.
Now he’s left and doing an apprenticeship, he’s so much happier and more “sorted” and I realised that five years of going to school and hating it and being punished for his mistakes gave him so much stress. It was almost like he had PTSD over the summer, so please don’t underestimate the stress it can put on those type of kids. My boy is dyslexic and I think the only thing that got him through was really helping him and making his home a safe space, not banning the x-box so that he wanted to be home and safe with us after school. It’s a very emotive subject for me, but I think some kids are just like that and I admit feeling disappointed that he wasn’t more sorted and that I still had to manage him and organise him in that way after expecting him to do that as he got older.

Regarding the jobs in the morning, these are what he’s been doing for years at primary, except his pack up, and he used to manage them with plenty of time to go on the PlayStation (his incentive to be quick), and we left earlier than he does now

But when I think about it, I think I’ve probably taking way to far a step back with the prompting and chivvying along.

So my plan is to:
Take back the responsibility of his pack up.
Assign time in the evening for packing his bag.
Help him write his checklist, and help prompt him in the morning to undertake each job by certain times.
Check his alarm is actually set for the right time!
Move homework space to down stairs
Set specific boundaries for when phone/iPad are allowed to be used.
Offer the option of no longer doing pocket money jobs to reduce his workload.

My DD1 ended with a formal dyspraxia diagnosis in y11, though we had long suspected it. What we didn't realise was how many of her other difficulties were associated with it.

Anyway. It is clear he isn't managing.
It also appears that this isn't because he's not bothered.

So imo you need to help and scaffold him for as long as he needs it, not punish him. You wouldn't punish a deaf person for not hearing, so don't punish someone who can't organise for not organising.

Move any jobs that can be in the evening to the evening. I would suggest straight after mealtime.

Do homework downstairs if you can to help him stay on track.

Help make a packing list and then go through it with him until he can do it. Even when he takes over, do gentle checks. (It took DD1 until y10 to really manage her bag independently.)

Absolutely enforce one place in the house where schoolbooks go. Similarly for other things. A place for everything and everything in its place.
A plastic wallet in his school bag for all loose sheets going to or from school. 2 pencil cases, one for school that stays in his bag, and one for stuff at home.
Also he must always write down homework or other messages or jobs to do in his planner. If everything is there he only has 1 place to check. Again DD1 just could not remember any messages or extras if they aren't written down. (She still can't if things aren't set as phone reminders.)

But please, help him. Unless he is blatant not bothering.

Why has he got so much to do in the mornings? I not surprised he’s taking so when he has household chores to complete and pets to feed when he’s trying to get ready for school. He’s probably feeling overwhelmed. I’d review his whole daily schedule. My dd1 has just started secondary and she’s the same re organisation right now. So every evening before school I’ll check her diary/timetable with her and make sure she’s completed and packed her relevant homework and any equipment/uniform she needs the next day, it takes roughly a minute and a half out of my evening. Regarding your son taking a long time/being distracted, my dd2 is exactly the same. I always say she’s away with the fairies. I’ve learnt that putting pressure on her makes it even worse. I just make sure she’s up early enough in the morning to get herself ready and important tasks are started immediately after school in case they take her a while. I really wouldn’t stress your son out by punishing him for struggling. If he’s actually completed his homework which he has, then he’s not gotten himself even more detentions deliberately by leaving it in his room