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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be angry that my uncle hasn't paid Tax or NI for over 30 years!

85 replies

Tensixtysix · 02/10/2019 08:23

My uncle has recently fallen ill and as his only relative it seems to have fallen on me to take care of him.
He needs to go into a nursing home and at least he has his own home, so that will have to be sold.
But he then drops the bombshell that it's worth would end up all going to HMRC because since the early 80s, he's been self employed as a painter/decorator and never applied for it.
He hardly ever went to the GP or hospitals.
But now in his 80s, he needs help and now THIS!
He's doomed isn't he?

OP posts:
tealady · 02/10/2019 09:59

There is some useful information here www.gov.uk/state-pension/eligibility and here www.gov.uk/plan-for-retirement I think you really need some help eg from Citizens advice. None of us can give you (or your Uncle) full advice with knowing the complete picture and it may not be as bad as you are assuming.
From his age I'm guessing he may have worked at least 20 years before the 80's when you say he stopped paying so maybe he has enough years credit from that time?
There is a pension check tool here www.gov.uk/check-state-pension?step-by-step-nav=c0ff9296-e91e-40d1-97bd-008026e90426
Much sympathy to you OP having to deal with this but I do think you need help from someone with expertise.

Herocomplex · 02/10/2019 10:01

I hope you don’t mind me asking, but are you sure your uncle can read and write? Not being involved with paperwork and the fact his wife managed to spend the savings without his knowledge just made me wonder.

I can understand why you’re angry, it’s a bit of a mess.

Carthage · 02/10/2019 10:01

Thanks idontwanttotalk. Interesting. Although I would be very surprised if they wanted to risk the DM sad face article from taking a man in his 80s to court!

deydododatdodontdeydo · 02/10/2019 10:18

I get he's your uncle, but there's an element of reap what you sow to this.
And a warning to others to plan for your retirement!
Tax dodging aside, how on earth did he think he was going to manage in old age??

Bellringer · 02/10/2019 10:23

I would be contacting a lawyer or accountant for advice, age concern or cab. Just take it one step at a time. He may be entitled to pension credit, attendance allowance.

MombieHunter · 02/10/2019 10:25

@RedSuitcase

I've never reneged on paying my taxes if that's what you mean.

Bellringer · 02/10/2019 10:27

Are you sure he needs residential care, there are other options. Involve social services for assessment.

RedSuitcase · 02/10/2019 10:29

@MombieHunter

I'm pretty sure leaving an elderly person to die in a ditch is a far worse thing to do than tax avoidance.

ifonly4 · 02/10/2019 10:31

So sorry to hear this OP, I guess he's your much love uncle and you've had a complete shock and feel you're left to deal with the mess.

As others have said, get advice on the best way to proceed. If Citizens Advice/Age Concern can't help, there should be a solicitor in the practice he'd use for selling his house, who'll know about tax matters.

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 02/10/2019 10:32

Im confused, if he never paid tax as he never declared income how does he even own a house in the first place? Surely he had a mortgage?

Straycatstrut · 02/10/2019 10:33

The cost of the house will be used up my HMRC and THEN he'll get a state pension won't he? Will be then be entitled to NHS treatment and nursing home care?

What has he been living off since he retired?

Bellringer · 02/10/2019 10:34

There are loads of people on casual or zero hours, cash in hand, not earning enough for tax. Loads of people don't gave pension. This can be sorted out, take it one step at a time.

Lightsabre · 02/10/2019 10:37

As a pp said, put in a claim for pension credit and Attendance Allowance. The state won't let him starve. If you havnt already done so, contact Social Services to start the assessment for residential care. He will have to sell his home probably.

MombieHunter · 02/10/2019 10:41

@RedSuitcase.

*tax evasion Wink

Sarahandco · 02/10/2019 10:57

I am not very good at maths but! if he left school at 16 and retire late 60s he might well have contributed for 20 years. He will be entitled to pension ect.

Go to citizens advice and find out what you can claim for him whatever he is entitled to. As someone else has said maybe he could not read/write/deal with the finances.

His house could be sold to pay for residential care in a worst-case scenario.

SoundsAboutRight · 02/10/2019 11:01

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LittleOwl153 · 02/10/2019 11:05

Having gone through all the paperwork recently for mother in law I would suggest:

Get financial/legal power of attourney for him. If he agrees this can be enacted immediately (well it takes about 2 months to come through). This means that you can make financial legal decisions on his behalf - whether or not he at the capacity to do so. (For those queirying Financial / legal POA needs to be set up whilst capable and can be set up either as for use asap or for use only when incapable, Health POA however needs to be signed whilst capable but cannot be registered until incapable.)

You say he needs nursing care - Has he been assessed for this? If not ask for an assessment. Is he currently in hospital - if he is then they can organise one - of not then his GP can refer to social service for assessment (or I believe you can.) Is his condition long term but not life threatening eg dementia, or is it medically life limiting e.g. cancer? The answer to this will make a significant different to how he is treated. If he has medical needs and is expected not to live for more than 3-6 months then his care will likely be NHS funded. This is difficult to get but seems considerabley more likely if he is in hospital and the hospital need his bed!!

If he is at home currently it is likely that they will want to keep him there unless assessments show that he really cant manage. You need to be very careful about assessments at home as they will ask what you are going to do to support him. Unless you want to become his fulltime carer then I would advise you say that you cannot do anything - cite work, distance, kids, anything you like - but make sure you tell those doing the assessment that you cannot help. That way he will get what care they can offer and anything you can do will be extra - not that the system is reliant on you to care for him.

In terms of sorting out his benefits/pension any care assessment will ask what he has coming in anyway so it is going to come to a head at some point. I would probably say you do not know why he doesnt have a pension etc as the info you have seems quite vague and suggest that they look into it. He will likely be entitled to attendance allowance in addition to anything else he gets unless he receives fully funded nursing home care.

At the end of the day if he does not qualify for NHS funded care, and does not have the funds to fund his own care then the social services will fund his care. They will prefer to keep him in his own home for as long as possible, and at the point he needs to be in a nursing home then they will place him where they consider the best value for money - you will likely get little say in this although you will probably be able to influence the area in which his is placed so in the district of his current home / you home if you are the only relatives - but no more than that. They will then take all pensions/income etc other than a small budget - something like £10 a week - which you will then be able to use for extras such as getting his hair cut.

A word of warning: once you open this hornets nest you are going to end up spending ALOT of time sorting stuff out for him. You need to consider whether you have the time before you do this as it is consuming (- and will need to all be done in normal working hours 9-5 mon-fri!).

If he has any cash available now I would also get him to consider setting up a funeral plan - otherwise you may find that there is no money left over to pay for that. (£1500-£2000 minimum I think).

Good Luck!!

MombieHunter · 02/10/2019 11:08

@SoundsAboutRight

"Why don't you take off your judgy-pants"

And not a hint of irony. Smile

bobsyourauntie · 02/10/2019 11:10

He will have to sell his home to pay for his care and that does serve him right to be honest. He can't expect the state to pay for him now when he didn't pay into it. You should check if he is receiving any pension, he would have been notified about that when it was due if it was due. If he isn't then get a pension forecast and take it from there.
Attendance Allowance is not dependant on NIC having been paid so he may get that.

HMRC are supplied with all bank accounts records by the banks, so they will be aware of how much he has in savings etc. But he won't be on their radar if he never registered and DWP is a separate department and they find it very difficult to communicate with each other.....

If HMRC do find out and take action and want some of the property value, then he only has himself to blame.

It would be very hypocritical of him to now expect to claim benefits to pay for his care, when he was not prepared to pay into the system via NIC.

IronicalCallSign · 02/10/2019 11:18

Wait a second, aside from the obvious requirements to be compos mentis to do PoA.. or selling his house... Etc.. The op should consider whether she wants to be his carer / guardian etc

Op you don't have to do this, you have a choice. Social care for elderly will see his basic needs met. It's not wholly your unquestionable responsibility.

I've seen friends & family get dragged into elderly care without any checkpoint on if it's the right thing... Overseeing carers, being the point of contact for falls, managing medication, visiting, it's not a commitment that should be entered into blindly.. and if you do some, it doesn't mean you have to do it all op.

Please consider your needs for 1 minute. If you want to, good. If you don't want to, that might also be ok for you.

SoundsAboutRight · 02/10/2019 11:18

@MombieHunter

I'll be keeping my judgy-pants on thanks, they fit very nicely! Wink I'm judging you on what you've actually said, which is nasty, vindictive and quite possibly unfounded. You on the other hand are wishing an elderly person whom you know nothing about, a possible painful, lonely death in a ditch! Yup, my pants fit just fine!

Namechangedeasily · 02/10/2019 11:19

One solution might be HMRC assess him for 20 years back taxes, interest and penalties and in doing so sell his home and keep the proceeds. If he has no NI record he would not get state pension only state benefits. However, if he were to go to prison for tax evasion, which this clearly is, no benefits need to be paid out. He would have a roof over his head, TV, a social life and free medical care.

MombieHunter · 02/10/2019 11:24

@SoundsAboutRight

Keep attacking that straw man.

Ferretyone · 02/10/2019 11:24

@Idontwanttotalk @Carthage

As said "20 years" but it will all be pointless as someone said after all this time. I very much doubt that HMRC could be bothered to do anything after all this time for someone in his 80s.

He should however be eligible for "Pension Credit" which is the last resort for old people with "no income"

caringcarer · 02/10/2019 11:29

Could you help him to sell his house so he can fund living in a care home. I think many of them charge £800 per week so it won't last forever. I am Sorry his poor responsibility is making your life so hard now OP. You have every right to be angry with him.

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