Punishment in pre-school

[Foldinthecheese]

My twin boys will be four in November and they have just started at a pre-school that is attached to a primary school. The school is brand new, but part of a trust with a very good reputation and good results.

So far they have been very happy there. Today, however, one of them was involved in an incident with another boy. I don’t know all the details, but apparently my DS hit the other boy. I think the two of them don’t get on well because a few weeks ago this other boy bit my DS, and my DS said he didn’t want the other boy to sit next to him. Anyway, the particulars don’t matter because of course it isn’t acceptable for my DS to hit, and we’ve spoken this afternoon about using words, not hands, and being kind to others. This is the first time he has ever hit a child who is not his brother, so this is new territory for me.

The issue I have is that my son was given a ‘red card’, which means he will lose some of his enrichment time on Friday, although I’m a bit hazy on what the enrichment time actually involves. I feel like dragging the consequences all the way to Friday is unnecessary. I think that, at this age, it should be dealt with at the time and then move on. There’s no need to dredge it up again later.

I promise I’m not precious. I’m disappointed in my DS for behaving as he did and fully support the school in using a behaviour system. I just feel that it’s unrealistic to expect a three year old to understand a link between a punishment and his behaviour several days previous. But perhaps I’m overthinking this. Would I be unreasonable to email the school to express my concerns?

I usually agree that the sanction should be immediate. But it’s harder when you’re running s group setting, and need to give children a clear message about consequences. Having something that you lose (often primary schools use the term “golden time” is used). They use the red card to show your son an immediate consequence.

I think this is fine.

It’s very very common in primary schools and as your boys are nearly 4, they’re only a few months younger than tens of thousands on reception year children on a similar system.

The punishment being later still works I think, because it’s well understood and the red card is immediate.

I agree with you OP “You can’t do this today because you hit someone four days ago” won’t make any sense to him.
They should have doled out an appropriate sanction at the time for it to be effective.

They are practically 4, like the previous poster said lots of just turned 4s are already in reception. They are more than old enough to understand a consequence of their actions will be punished later and they also need to get used to the rules which will apply all thro their primary school life.

It's called 'Golden Time' in a lot of schools and it's perfectly normal for kids to lose some of it as punishment.

Your child will be 4 years old in a month. I'm sure he'll get to understand this class rule.

I think it’s too young for children to have to wait for punishment tbh, it’s generally accepted that children should see the consequences of their behaviour immediately rather than being expected to link not getting X today with hitting someone 4 days ago. He’s way too little to make that link.

My DCs school has a “start the new day afresh” policy for all kids which I think works well - my DD is 8 and would massively struggle knowing she had to wait til Friday for the sanction, it’s shaming and anxiety provoking.

In saying that I know I’m often out of step with MN on most discipline/age and stage issues.

Losing a few minutes of Golden Time at the end of the weeks is 'anxiety provoking'?? Jesus Wept.

Oh no! That's awful behaviour management. I wouldn't be happy at all.

A red card? At pre-school age? And a punishment 'held' for 4 days. Poor boy! No way would I be promoting that behaviour system in my nursery (I'm a teacher in a school nurser so I understand the school systems).

It's not age appropriate at all for an almost 4 year old to be able to process this. It should have had a sanction at the time of the hitting.

Surely there should be a yellow card before the red card. (and every day starts afresh.) I also agree punsiment should no be delayed.

Many schools use loss of 'Golden Time' as a sanction. Often when the children have transgressed three times over a week.

I've never known it used for one incident or in Reception.

So I absolutely don't agree with it in Nursery.

june, I think there’s usually a progression of cards. First it’s a thinking card (they’ve each had one for being silly), then yellow, then red, except for serious issues like hitting, which lead to a straight red.

I think there was a sanction at the time of the incident. The boys told me that their teacher shouted (I don’t think she did, probably just spoke sternly), and I imagine he had to go to the thinking corner and apologise. I do prefer the idea of starting fresh each day, particularly at this young age. I think that was the approach at their nursery.

I don’t know. It’s interesting to hear both perspectives. I guess my biggest concern is that it’s a group of just 12 and this is the second incident with the same boy. Obviously it will be difficult to keep them apart, and I really wish there was a little more communication about how they’re managing the situation.

If you want more communication about it, why not just ask?

I do prefer the daily fresh start approach, but from when my child was in YR (August baby so 4) I would say she definitely understood the wait until Friday.

Actually come to think of it OP

Perhaps he hasn't actually 'lost' that time, he just hasn't earned it today - meaning that by the time Friday comes, he'll have 5 minutes or so less than those who were good everyday?

If I remember rightly the kids in my DC's school used to earn 5 minutes per day for good behaviour, so by Friday that was 25 minutes.

I think he will learn faster this way not to hit others than he would with a ‘every day starts anew’ approach. The fact is, actions have consequences. The boy he hit will probably still remember it on Friday.

I think it is a crap system for all the reasons you've given. But if that is the preschool's disciplinary policy then I wouldn't think it was worth moving my dc over.

Ellisandra, I haven’t had the opportunity to speak to the teacher. The pre-school runs for normal school hours and then they go to after-school club, so their teacher is long gone by the time I get there on my working days. I will see her tomorrow, as I won’t be working, but we drop them off and collect them at the door and the expectation feels very much that it is not an opportunity to chat. I have found it a very tricky transition after being with a childminder and then a nursery where we always had a chat and lots of information about how they spent their day.

Worra, you could be right, but they’ve never said anything before about it being earned, so I’m not sure.

Seaweed, I don’t entirely agree. Again, I’m not excusing what he did, but my experience with little boys is that these things are soon forgotten. I also don’t think that he hit in a pre-meditated way. From the sounds of it, his temper got the better of him. It’s not okay, but he’s still learning to control his impulses, and I don’t think that awareness of a consequence four days away will change his behaviour.

I think it's a bit OTT for preschool but a pp claiming it to be "shaming and anxiety provoking" is hilarious. Way to put heavy adult feelings onto a kid.

Golden time is a pretty pointless behaviour management system at any age, but I’ve never seen it applied in nursery.

An immediate sanction with a conversation about what he might have done differently would probably have been a better option.

Seaweed, I don’t entirely agree. Again, I’m not excusing what he did, but my experience with little boys is that these things are soon forgotten. I also don’t think that he hit in a pre-meditated way. From the sounds of it, his temper got the better of him. It’s not okay, but he’s still learning to control his impulses, and I don’t think that awareness of a consequence four days away will change his behaviour.

Which opinion you are entirely entitled to. I have a different view on the matter, but we can agree to disagree.

I wouldn’t be happy with this, a punishment that happens four days later can’t possibly be effective, by then the incident should be long forgotten. Either he is now going to be feeling punished all week waiting for his punishment or really confused when the practitioners who have moved on and been lovely to him for the rest of the week suddenly turn round on Friday and not let him have his enrichment time for something he will practically have forgotten about. Imagine how confusing that would be for the poor child. I wouldn’t be happy with a school using this for reception children let alone preschool age.

Losing a few minutes of Golden Time at the end of the weeks is 'anxiety provoking'?? Jesus Wept.

No, the losing time is neither here nor there, but the knowing every day that everyone knows you did something wrong and being reminded of it again through the loss of golden time is shame inducing. It’s a form of discipline designed to shame the child into obedience - same with the use of coloured clouds or anything else which visually moves a child through a system that class mates can see.

And no, for many children it won’t be an issue but for mine it is and there are very good reasons for her becoming anxious and feeling shamed by that form of discipline. I’m guessing in a usual class size there will be other kids like her so please fuck off with your “Jesus wept”. And these are 3 year olds, a “kind hands” conversation should be sufficient.

I’m sorry, seaweed, but I think you’ll find that isn’t how it works on AIBU.

Well, we can have a bun fight if you prefer! I have cream horns.

Working at a pre-school we would never do this, it makes no sense to delay the behaviour correction, it will not be impactful. If it were us your child would have had a few minutes of reflection time (time-out style) and we would have a discussion with them after about how it might have made the other child feel. You would then be informed of the discussion we had to continue encouraging empathy at home.

There is definitely an age (say 2 years old) when punishment has to be immediate to have any effect. And then there is an age (say 6 years old) when losing golden time on a Friday is a fairly standard primary school punishment for doing something naughty earlier in the week.

I think the difficulty is knowing when to move from one to the other. As your DS will be 4 in a few weeks, I'm inclined to think he's ready for the second of these. I agree with you it's borderline though.

I used the golden time system when I taught in mainstream .. But even up the school in year 5 I always gave the children the chance to earn back lost time over the remainder of the week ..