Punishment in pre-school

[Foldinthecheese]

My twin boys will be four in November and they have just started at a pre-school that is attached to a primary school. The school is brand new, but part of a trust with a very good reputation and good results.

So far they have been very happy there. Today, however, one of them was involved in an incident with another boy. I don’t know all the details, but apparently my DS hit the other boy. I think the two of them don’t get on well because a few weeks ago this other boy bit my DS, and my DS said he didn’t want the other boy to sit next to him. Anyway, the particulars don’t matter because of course it isn’t acceptable for my DS to hit, and we’ve spoken this afternoon about using words, not hands, and being kind to others. This is the first time he has ever hit a child who is not his brother, so this is new territory for me.

The issue I have is that my son was given a ‘red card’, which means he will lose some of his enrichment time on Friday, although I’m a bit hazy on what the enrichment time actually involves. I feel like dragging the consequences all the way to Friday is unnecessary. I think that, at this age, it should be dealt with at the time and then move on. There’s no need to dredge it up again later.

I promise I’m not precious. I’m disappointed in my DS for behaving as he did and fully support the school in using a behaviour system. I just feel that it’s unrealistic to expect a three year old to understand a link between a punishment and his behaviour several days previous. But perhaps I’m overthinking this. Would I be unreasonable to email the school to express my concerns?

Thanks so much for all your thoughts. I really appreciate the different perspectives. I’ve decided I’m going to email the school, not to question their behaviour approach but to just clarify exactly what happened since getting a coherent story from two nearly-four-year-olds is proving very challenging. As I said before, he’s never hit another child apart from his brother and we’ve never had any issues with his behaviour with the childminder or at nursery, so hopefully we can get a bit more information to figure out how to help him change his behaviour in the future.

That is overly harsh and they wouldn’t understand sanctions at that age!
That is sadly school tactics but should be not used on 3/4 year olds! Ask to view their behaviour policy and go from there.

how to help him change his behaviour in the future
Most children of this age hit and kick at some point, I honestly don’t think it’s something you need to worry about long term. Short of a little chat about remembering kind hands and being kind to friends, there’s not much you can do about it until they develop more control over their emotions when they get a bit older.

At my dc school at 4.0yo it was going outside classroom and going to the HT! (Completely pointless as dc wasnt scared of HT).

I would consider why he would hit this particular child. Sounds like it is to do with the biting. He doesnt trust him.
Plus also it's likely the other dc has behaviour issues/impulsivity.
I think that would be the reason your dc hasnt behaved like this before with other children as it's a mix of environment (where teachers are probably not watching them playing), other child who says or does things, your child who reacts - the teachers dont know why often and i find only blame the hitter etc and have no chat with the other child about what they are doing or saying. This is why i think behaviour changes to verbal from physical because phyical is understandablely strongly punished but nothing said to the child saying stuff.

Tiredness plays a big part in physically bad behaviour so starting a new place would be the worst point.
Hopefully your ds will be over this stage by reception (because it's rubbish when they are suddenly getting in trouble like this when they were fine before, they become that child with the parents. )

Awkward, I think you’re exactly right in your reading of the issue. My DS slept until 7.30 this morning, which is very unusual, so he was obviously tired. My DH just arrived home on Saturday after two weeks working abroad, and both boys were very happy but also seemed very overwhelmed and struggled to manage their emotions when he returned.

I’ve just found out today that their teacher is an NQT and she has an awful lot of responsibility for an NQT. She’s seems nice but maybe lacks warmth? It certainly seems like she’s applied the behaviour policy without considering the bigger picture.

I’m trying so hard not to be precious about this, but I’m really struggling.

I don’t think you’re being at all precious, discipline systems need to account for age, stage, capacity, transitions etc it’s not a one size fits all and your child is very small yet. I’d be talking to her about her rationale for the sanction and her understanding of why it’s an effective strategy for pre-school children - and I’d not accept a reduction of enrichment or golden time type activities four days later.

It certainly seems like she’s applied the behaviour policy without considering the bigger picture.

It might seem this way to you now, but you have only just started on your parenting journey and your parenting a child of school age journey. She is an NQT, but she is a trained teacher under the guidance of more senior staff. I would suggest not going in there with a patronising attitude. One day, someone is going to hit your child and you are going to want the behaviour policy followed. She is following it now.

I don't think it works to punish 3 years old few days later, but getting red card, not a yellow card or other prior warning means he did something quite serious? Or the school is really strict?
If I remember correctly, hitting and pushing happened in preschool with my child in the past, but never been punished this way. It was dealt with straightaway, and forgotten the next day.

seaweed, I don’t have any intention of being patronising. I want to ask for some clarification on what happened exactly. To get a straight red card with the loss of enrichment time on Friday is quite a severe punishment for a small child. I want to know if his behaviour was an issue leading up to the hitting, or if the problem arose suddenly. As I said in my OP, the boy he hit is one who bit him a couple of weeks ago. I absolutely did not want him to lose enrichment time or really experience any consequences other than being spoken to and apologising. They are small children with poor impulse control. It isn’t acceptable for them to hurt each other, but I think there are better ways for them to learn how to deal with their frustrations.

Piglet, I have no idea if it was quite serious or not because the teacher hasn’t spoken to me. I was told by the after-school club supervisor that he ‘didn’t use kind hands’ with one of his friends. She didn’t know any other details. The teacher made no attempt to speak to me about it this morning and we were first at the door with a queue of parents behind us, so I didn’t feel comfortable raising the issue. I may try at pick up time.

If the teacher didn't speak to you, it couldn't have been that serious. In that case, I definitely think the punishment for 3 years old few days later is a bit excessive.

Agree with jellycatspyjamas it is completely inappropriate to shame a three year old like this.

To be honest, OP, whether or not it’a your intention to be patronising isn’t relevant. You seem like a nice lady and I am not suggesting you’re trying to get the teacher’s back up, but mentioning her limited experience and whether she understands ‘the bigger picture’ is condescending. She will have a rationale for the sanction. She might not agree with your view that it is severe, and probably thinks it’s the right decision, all things considered, or she wouldn’t have done it.

seaweed, as before, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m a secondary teacher and I remember being an NQT and applying sanctions very strictly without consideration of whether or not they were entirely appropriate. Now, after lots of years of experience, I can take a more nuanced view. I’m not condescending, I promise. The idea of raising this issue is putting me in a bit of a panic. I just think that it’s okay to ask for some clarification and information.

Foldinthecheese

I think you are definitely patronising her. Just because you weren’t able to apply sanctions correctly doesn’t mean she can’t. I agree with her. At four, your son is - just - old enough to understand that there are consequences and that the reward at the end of the week covers the whole week. In my opinion, anyway. 🤷🏻‍♀️

But yes, of course you ought to have a chat with her.

I'm sure you can read their behaviour policy. I highly doubt they are going to change their behaviour policy because you dont like it. I'm part odour preschool committee and we often go through our behaviour policy but I wouldn't change it because 1 parent didnt like tbh

At four, your son is - just - old enough

Her son isn’t four though and this is his pre-school year, early years education is evidenced to be most effective when it’s play based and positive behaviour management is generally considered to be appropriate for this age group. I can’t see how asking a teacher to explain the rationale behind a sanction is condescending especially when the behaviour wasn’t sufficient to merit a conversation with mum. These are tiny children who in many places wouldn’t be in formal education for another year or two, I wouldn’t accept that as an appropriate sanction for my 6 year old never mind a child half that age.

My daughter's nursery has a miss out sit out policy so the punishment is instant. Plus each session is a fresh start so any morning misbehaviour is wiped clean before the afternoon session and all afternoon misbehaviour forgotten by the next day.

I wouldn’t accept that as an appropriate sanction for my 6 year old never mind a child half that age.

But your position on MN is always extreme, Jelly. I have seen lots of posts about what you would and wouldn’t accept. The teacher’s judgment is what matters in this case and you really wouldn’t be in a position to make the choice, if your child was in my class.

Up in Scotland, where I teach, there has been a real trend to do away with ‘Golden Time’. It’s generally considered pretty ineffective right up to the end of primary to save up/drag out punishments for the end of the week.

Unless it was really serious or out of character, the average 8 year old has usually forgotten what misdemeanour they did on a Tuesday.

I spoke to the teacher after school today. She said she saw the incident happen, but she seemed a little unclear on the details. She said my DS hit the other boy in the face, which horrified me, but then she said she wasn’t sure if he had been reaching for something else and caught him by accident. She said my DS was very upset by the incident. I told her that I was a little concerned that holding a sanction to Friday wasn’t going to be effective for him because I wasn’t sure that he would make the link between losing enrichment time and an event that had happened several days earlier. She was very understanding and said they could certainly take another approach that was more immediate if such an incident occurred again. She seemed to take my concerns as being more about my son’s behaviour rather than how she handled it, which is fine, because that is my primary concern.

But your position on MN is always extreme, Jelly. I have seen lots of posts about what you would and wouldn’t accept.

Unsurprisingly I don’t think my position is that extreme - and thankfully my child isn’t in your class. I have a very good relationship with my children’s school, their class teachers and headteacher who thankfully tailor their approach to the needs of the child as far as is humanly possible.

Oddly enough the OP managed to have a conversation with the teacher and agree a different approach without a falling out or anyone feeling patronised - which is how it usually works in my experience. My position becomes “extreme” in the face of people who think to question in any way a teacher’s approach to their child as akin to questioning God. I don’t happen to agree that we should expect 3 year olds to understand sanctions 4 days later - the only place that makes me extreme, it seems, is mumsnet.

Glad you got it sorted OP.

My youngest dc had a problem with another boy at preschool hitting him. Preschool dealt with it by having dedicated time every day when one member of staff would sit with the 2 boys doing a fun activity and give lots of praise when they played nicely together. I would much rather this approach than harsh punishments at preschool age. The little boy and my ds ended up becoming best friends.

Good result OP.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that at that age sanctions should be immediate rather than dragged out over several days.

My position becomes “extreme” in the face of people who think to question in any way a teacher’s approach to their child as akin to questioning God.

Evidently, except that nobody ever mentions God when this argument gets trotted out.