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Greta pt 2 - not all about her - well, duh!

82 replies

onalongsabbatical · 25/09/2019 08:34

Whooa I did not stay on top of this thread but it seems to have generated a great debate so let's keep it going. Of course it's not all about Greta, but talk about climate change and environmentalism. She's a catalyst. Like Joan of Arc was a catalyst in French politics, but who remembers the French politics of the early fifteenth century, tell me that? It's big names and stories that get us talking, so thanks Greta and I'm firmly in your corner.

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CendrillonSings · 25/09/2019 08:45

I’m not a fan of hers politically, but actually I found her speech, albeit a bit jejune and overwrought, to be rhetorically effective and powerful.

It’s the kind of thing that will be fun to replay for her grandkids after she retires from a long and profitable career in accountancy Wink

onalongsabbatical · 25/09/2019 08:46

@WallyWallyWally @Trewser @Floisme @MarshaBradyo c'mon over here.

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Saucery · 25/09/2019 08:46

The point about litter picking and small steps on the other thread was interesting. I’ve seen a lot of push back on social media this week and several people, at the same time as slating Greta Thunberg, have signed up to do a litter pick or some other local activism. Purely to show that they resent being ‘told what to do’ by her and ER.
I think the irony is lost on them that her media presence has spurred them on to do something that directly impacts on and improves their community Grin

I have no time for anyone who calls her ‘weird’, ‘stilted’, ‘odd’ etc. The reasons why this is have been explained many times before (and thank you to the poster on the other thread who explained how the approach to the opinions of children differ in Sweden, which is something I wasn’t aware of).

I still worry about her in a non-patronising way. I don’t want her to shut up and go away but I do want her to be guided and supported by people with her welfare as their primary concern. She reminds me of living under the shadow of nuclear war in the 70s and 80s and the sheer terror I felt for a couple of years about it. I did what I could then and she is doing the same now, albeit in a very different world where everything is much more immediate and under constant scrutiny.

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Floisme · 25/09/2019 08:50

Dammit I'd spent ages typing a post then realised you'd all buggered off. So as I went to all that trouble you can bloody well read it here.

It was a response in answer to Marsha who asked me Floisme do you think this is a regular climate cycle change and not a climate emergency?
I don't know Marsha. I'm no scientist but then nor is Greta. But I understand we were in a mini ice age until the middle of the 19th century so this stuff has always been happening. Of course that doesn't mean it's not an emergency but, if it's an emergency that isn't primarily caused by CO2, then is it possible that we're chasing the wrong solution? Is it possible that the best we can hope for is to build massive sea defences and switch to nuclear power? These are the kinds of arguments that I've been trying to make sense of. They may be bollocks. I don't know yet. But this is why I can admire Greta for her bravery and tenacity but still be unconvinced by her.

There was also a post by Wally at the end of the last thread which I think is worth everyone reading.

And now I think I'm going take a short sabbatical on Style and Beauty and Feminism.

onalongsabbatical · 25/09/2019 08:52

Floisme stay and help me choose a spider brooch?

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Floisme · 25/09/2019 09:01

is that here ona or another thread?

onalongsabbatical · 25/09/2019 09:12

Flo I just want the new thread to take off. But on the other hand, I want a spider brooch. I'm looking for one on Amazon (yes I know I'm a mass of terrible contradictions...) but I can't make my mind up. Any spidey brooch recommendations welcome, but no I haven't got that going on another thread. I'm not even dressed yet and I'm having a tooth out at lunchtime...

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WallyWallyWally · 25/09/2019 09:12

You persuaded me @Floisme, here reproduced for your reading pleasure...

I have a background in ecology / sustainable development.

GT and XR pull good publicity stunts but the lack of practical advice, particularly for teens, is frustrating. The reason that GT and XR are not giving any of the usual comforting advice ("go vegan! stop flying! drive less!") is that there is no evidence that any of it will make any impact at all on climate heating. The advice, which is endlessly repeated on countless green / eco-friendly blogs and insta posts, does nothing more than make people feel they are doing something, that they can make some choices and make a difference. It doesn't. The bigger NGOs that repeat this advice in a very consumer-friendly, non-threatening way, and offer "tools" like carbon footprint calculators, do so as a way of engaging, educating and motivating people to campaign or to support their aims - not because it makes even the slightest bit of difference that a bunch of middle-class families can pat themselves on the back for reducing their footprint. It's a marketing campaign designed to drum up support for their cause - not a solution in itself.

GT and XR whole point is that these little changes don't and won't make any difference. GTs whole point is that the climate scientists have sounded the alarm bell loud and clear (climate deniers notwithstanding) - yet no one is doing anything meaningful in response, we're just sitting on our arses while the house burns down around us. She's not going to tell us what to do - she tells us to look to the scientists as our best hope. She doesn't have the answers - she can only tug on our elbows and point out that there's an alarm bell ringing and no-one seems to be responding to it and she can't understand why.

XR want the demonstrations become so huge that governments around the world are convinced that "the public" has given them permission to put climate change at the top of their agendas and to undertake the necessary radical actions to tackle it. Because they really would be radical - in the true sense of the word: beeswax wraps and "staycations" are not going to cut it. They also have a strong socialist agenda - which I personally don't entirely disagree with, but is a huge turn off for many people, especially in the US .

It's ironic that China is probably best placed to implement the radical changes required, because the government - being a dictatorship - can basically do what it likes and not worry about getting voted in. They already do this with their social control system: how easy it would be to link that to environmental outcomes and not just social ones.

onalongsabbatical · 25/09/2019 09:28

Anyone with a Kindle and a spare 99p - Extinction Rebellion book 'This is not a Drill' is a Kindle deal of the day.
And what a well-chosen title. This is NOT a drill, it's climate change, and it's happening NOW. And people complain about a young woman saying her childhood's been stolen? And call her all kinds of names?
They should give their veritable heads a big ole wobble.
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07R57LTG5/ref=s9_acsd_hps_bw_c_x_1_w?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_p=f919c5f8-edf0-4006-8e4e-0da74f867846&pf_rd_r=8GWZAM93H97XXQMSG3QP&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-2&pf_rd_t=101&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&pf_rd_i=5400977031

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Trewser · 25/09/2019 09:30

There wasn't a huge amount of debating as far as i remember, just a lot of slagging off of posters who dared not to think GT was actually the Messiah. But do start another thread to continue being able to do that Hmm

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onalongsabbatical · 25/09/2019 09:34

But I don't think anyone thinks she's the Messiah, just that she's doing a damn good job putting climate further up the agenda in people's consciousness and that she doesn't deserve all the hate she's getting, surely?

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MarshaBradyo · 25/09/2019 09:36

Wally I found your post interesting glad you can see she doesn’t have to come up with every solution but I’m surprised at the fly at abandon advice given the info on killing chunks of forests.

And whilst when anyone goes on a sneer about deluded mc families I kind of tune out it I’m interested in hearing from others in the know. Can we all long haul fly with abandon

Going to try and post less too much responding!

Trewser · 25/09/2019 09:37

There wasn't any hate on the other thread.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 25/09/2019 09:41

@Trewser Yup! I wanted to discuss it but quickly realised that worrying over GT and the long term implications for her as an individual; the ludicrous hagiography that is happening, right now, in real time; the assumption that pp need a teen to tell them something that has been a decades long campaign by many individuals and organisations - so she isn't a new phenomenon; the comparison with Rosa Parks by someone who was obviously unaware of the 15 year old Claudette Colvin, whose friends, family and fellow activists made a different decison for her, was not going to go down well Smile

CuriousaboutSamphire · 25/09/2019 09:42

she doesn't deserve all the hate she's getting On that last thread? There wasn't any, at least not at the time I was still reading it.

In the real world, yes, as she is irritating and aggravating many powerful people... which is why I said what I did! I worry that she is being poorly advised and ill used!

onalongsabbatical · 25/09/2019 09:57

No no I don't mean on the thread (although I thought there was some), but on other social media. I just wanted to galvanise support for her AND get a good environmental discussion going.

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Jillyhilly · 25/09/2019 10:04

Why can’t they adopt a more positive message? That might go over a lot better.

Personally I absolutely reject the notion that I’m nothing more than a walking “carbon footprint” and that human beings basically shouldn’t be on the planet at all - that we’ve ruined nature merely by existing. When anyone talks at me like that I immediately switch off and I imagine many other people do the same. It’s a disgraceful way to think about the incredible luxuries of modern western living and the privilege we have that many people in developing counties now, and across the whole world throughout history, couldn’t even have imagined in their wildest dreams.

What’s missing in all this is any sense of gratitude for the lives we live today, awareness of the incredibly technological achievements and human creativity that have made our lives possible, or sense of historical perspective. For all those except the very wealthy, human existence throughout the centuries has been a miserable struggle to survive.
It was a constant battle to keep yourself and your family fed, clothed and warm enough to last another year. The thing that made that struggle so very difficult WAS the environment. It is our very ability to tame that environment that has made our lives possible.

We have completely forgotten this. Our lives today are a miracle but everything is taken for granted. None of us would be here today - or if we were most of us would be eking our the most fucking miserable existences - without fossil fuels, industrialisation, capitalism and the ability of human beings to solve problems.

And human ingenuity continues. Things are never perfect but these problems ARE being solved. There are huge advancements in green technologies. Governments have introduced environmental legislation. The market is responding to a shift in consumer attitudes.

So why do hard-core environmentalists always act as if they are the first people to come up with these ideas and that nothing has been done at all until this point? And why can’t they even acknowledge that there are some controversies around the science? And why can’t they even acknowledge the potentially horrendous economic impact of radical green policies on the lives of ordinary working people? There was a discussion on the previous thread about shutting down the meat industry in which nobody seemed remotely concerned about what would happen to the people working in the industry if their livelihoods were taken away. The answer is always “oh well, poor people will suffer much more in the climate crisis” - as if poor people are too unimportant and too stupid to understand what’s in their own best interests.

These extreme positions and the lack of willingness to compromise - as exemplified by GT - force people like me to take much more hard-core positions on the other side than I would like to, because that’s what happens when someone is screaming in your face.

It doesn’t work, and it doesn’t result in real change. As I type this, I’m sitting in a University cafe watching a massive queue of very young people buy their takeaway coffees and croissants in throwaway packaging. They won’t change their behaviour, and they shouldn’t be forced to by a government because that’s an authoritarian regime. What will happen is that the marketplace will produce completely biodegradable packaging and people will flock to invest in it. And another problem will be solved.

DoctorAllcome · 25/09/2019 10:04

@WallyWallyWally
XR want the demonstrations become so huge that governments around the world are convinced that "the public" has given them permission to put climate change at the top of their agendas and to undertake the necessary radical actions to tackle it. Because they really would be radical - in the true sense of the word: beeswax wraps and "staycations" are not going to cut it. They also have a strong socialist agenda - which I personally don't entirely disagree with, but is a huge turn off for many people, especially in the US .

Yes, I agree with you that this is XRs goal. But unfortunately, protests & public opinion have very little influence on the US government which a recent Princeton study has documented. I haven’t heard what “radical actions” XR are proposing, I am only familiar with AOCs Green New Deal which is completely unexecutable because of its socialist aspects. The socialism is a huge turn off for me and other Americans. The track records of who is greenest and taking radical steps are the capitalist countries. The track records of the socialist countries- China, Venezuela is one of environmental devastation and going backwards to being worse polluters.

There will be no eureka or one technology that offsets climate change. Sea defenses are a waste of time and money- sea levels have always risen and fallen over the millennia. Where do you think all the flood legends in every culture come from? We need to understand that our planet is ever changing and populations must migrate. Clean energy is not a waste that we should accelerate our switching over to. Freshwater sources is also not a waste of time, but that is actually solved with RO desalination, it’s just a matter of building the remaining necessary plants. Flying isn’t that big of a deal because planes are cleaner than cars or ferries or trains once your journey is more than 450km each way. The cleanest is to reduce journeys and hence the awesomeness of VTC/Skype/FaceTime and homeworking. Phasing out offices and the daily commute would have a greater impact than forgoing an annual vacation. Modern farming techniques that are low on pesticides and with no GMOs produce food for 10bn people...that’s half the battle won as the worlds population growth is slowing and projected to taper off at the 9bn mark...so that leaves focussing on food supply chains and distribution...free and fair trade. Habitat preservation and conservation is normalized, just need to keep funding it and not be tempted to concrete them over for luxury homes for the rich.
There is a lot of hope to be had. I don’t agree that everyone is sitting and watching the house burn down around us. My parents generation, my generation and the current have continuously worked and fought to help the planet. Lots of progress has been made.

DoctorAllcome · 25/09/2019 10:09

@Jillyhilly
Loved your post. Id have quoted bits, but then I’d be quoting all of it because I was nodding the whole way through.

DoctorAllcome · 25/09/2019 10:14

And why can’t they even acknowledge the potentially horrendous economic impact of radical green policies on the lives of ordinary working people?

They won’t acknowledge this because the economic collapse that would result from radical socialist changes would actually result in a domino effect of environmental devastation and increases in pollution. Not to mention, refugees, famine, disease, etc. Just observing Venezuela can tell anyone that. Prior attempts also can tell you that, like the USSR, but people tend to think anything that happened pre2000 is ancient history and not repeatable.

onalongsabbatical · 25/09/2019 10:15

Latest report. Very, very sobering. This is NOT a drill. www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/25/extreme-sea-level-events-will-hit-once-a-year-by-2050

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MarshaBradyo · 25/09/2019 10:16

People talk about ingenuity which I don’t doubt and gives me hope (did I hear about electric planes) but what drives this demand?

Consumer spend changing

Why do they change because they’ve remembered some message about climate. People are simple and forgetful it only has to be a simple message. This is x better than that.

The strikes have reached millions so this is better than that will be in the minds of more people.

If it takes a prod and a line which is repeated countless times and gets discussion going do be it.

Positive there there messages haven’t worked for decades. Wallpaper.

DoctorAllcome · 25/09/2019 10:25

@marshabradyo
It’s a lot more than consumer spend changing!

-you have to research and develop the technology or product substitute which is more environmentally friendly.

-you have to establish economic support systems to encourage the uptake in environmentally friendly technologies and products. For example, tax breaks if you insulate your house or buy an electric car or put solar panels on your roof.

Consumers can’t change their spending if there is nothing to change to and encouragement to make that change.