To think it doesn't make sense to be Remainer and left wing?

[FloatingObject]

First of all, I voted Remain.

But the more I read about Corbyn, the more I think this isn't all clear cut.

Clearly leaving the EU with the Tories in power would be a disaster.

But if we left the EU and had a green or left wing government...

Doesn't the EU, in many ways, just continue propping up a kind of internationalist, globalised and capitalist system? We want to stay within the EU so we can continue FoM and global trading.

But listening to Greta's speech this morning, about needing to enact deep change, shouldn't the truly left wing approach be to stop all politics that focus on international trade and travel?

What do you think? Is this the point of view that JC is coming from?

My DP is a major old-school leftie, and he thinks this way. It's not a line of thinking I've heard from anyone else though!

I’m a Right Wing Feminist Tory Party hating Pro Europe Remainer
Who knows where JC is coming from, doubt he knows himself

Well, the other way to frame this is that there is a streak in the left that tends towards collective ownership combined with absolute equality. A very coarse version of this would be a world government, so a super EU sort-of-thing. But I think you are right, OP, when you name what would be leftist Leave position

In doctrinaire left v right politics, the left's position is that supra-national trading bodies like the EU support business, not workers, so old-school lefties are against them.

But things are much more complex than that. Many on the left have come to recognise that the protections afforded to workers by the EU are so great that they outweigh simple capital v labour considerations.

Dear old Tony Benn used to say that he was opposed to the EU because if Britain voted for socialism, it wouldn't be allowed under EU rules, but I'm not sure how much that applies. France seems to manage prefectly well with nationalised energy, rail and telecoms sectors and strong workers' rights, so it must be possible to square that with EU rules about competitive procurement by public bodies.

It's one of the reasons why the Brexit debate doesn't split neatly along left/right lines. People at both ends of the political spectrum can be equally opposed to the EU, but for entirely different reasons.

Well, if you count being left wing as caring about the well being of society as a whole, particularly most vulnerable, pursuing policy that will lead to people losing their jobs, business suffering therefore there being less money nationally to have a strong public sector..
I’d say you’re wrong. Not to mention the benefits of being part of a wider block of liberal countries with values mirroring our own whilst the likes of China and Russia grow in power and continue to stamp down on free speech and human rights.
Sure, in imaginary world, we could have a perfect independent green UK, but ideologically as a leftist I would still prefer to be outward looking and part of an international group of liberal countries. Back in reality, my concerns are for jobs, welfare and family in NI. And how on earth could something Farage, Johnson et al advocate for be the socialist solution? As for JC... 🙄

One way to tackle climate change is collaboration. Collaboration of research and science. Brexit damages this.
Another way to tackle climate change is by dealing more and more with our closest neighbours. Brexit damages this.
Another way to tackle climate change is by environmental protections - we have many from the EU. Brexit damages this.
All environmental groups were against Brexit. Many Leavers are climate deniers.

JC wants a 70s model of industry and society. It won't work.
We are wasting time with Brexit when we should be moving forwards on the environment.

Clearly leaving the EU with the Tories in power would be a disaster.

That's the crux of it though isn't it? No matter what they do they still win elections. The left is too split and too many people are blind to the issues faced by people in poverty. I have completely lost faith in anything getting any better... I entered the working world in 2008 though so maybe my opinion is clouded by the fact that all I've done is struggle.

Conservative policies have had catastrophic effects on my loved ones so I'm too scared to think about a country where they have complete control. Maybe things would be different if a party I agree with more were in power but I don't believe it is ever going to happen.

Might as well make Rupert Murdoch prime minister as every election is decided by him anyway.

There are far more intellectual minds on the left than Corbyn that have made the case against the EU. When the UK first joined the EEC in 1973 it was predominantly the right that was most in favour and the left that mostly against. Having said that I don't think you'll get much agreement on here.

@ShartGoblin
I agree, the left is too split. It's so depressing to realise that if there's a GE now the Tories would win it. My view is that this happened when Labour attempted to "modernise", trying to appeal to vast swathes of the population and in doing so cutting loose it's old traditional pockets.
It's a mess. I would prefer to vote green but feel that would be a wasted vote and like I have no choice but to vote labour.

I also think it’s odd that so many on the left want to remain and wonder it’s party an anti-tory reaction. So many forget that Juncker is the former PM of Luxembourg, a state that is effectively a tax haven for multinationals. The EU allows this. Surely propping up tax havens is against Labour’s principles.

But listening to Greta's speech this morning, about needing to enact deep change, shouldn't the truly left wing approach be to stop all politics that focus on international trade and travel

Well, stopping trade and travel probably would be a left-wing/stupid approach. The problem with left-wingery is that instead of defining proper objectives and constructing the best practical methods to achieve them is that they focus on simplistic/bad methods and treat implementing them as synonymous with achieving the objective.

International trade or travel may have some bad consequences, but banning it is a stupid approach to addressing them. To use one narrow issue as an example, I believe that requiring all aircraft to use carbon neutral fuel might add as little as 10%-15% to the cost of flying. Even if the cost were 100% though, surely using carbon neutral fuel is a more intelligent approach to than simply banning flying.

You could take that same argument further and say mandating carbon-neutral fuel for flying is actually too prescriptive, you need to clamp down on all emissions in a consistent way, so the use of carbon neutral fuels for flying should be a side-effect of a proper carbon cap-and-trade system, and not the result of specifically addressing flying.

JC wants a 70s model of industry and society

Constant industrial action, three day weeks, power cuts, mountains of rubbish, the dead going unburied etc etc. Ah yes, those were the days!

I kind of see the Left Leave POV as outlined above but I can't get on board with it when I read how much hedge funds have paid Johnson to crash us out so they can make a fortune shorting the pound and how much 'anti red tape' clamour there is on the right to remove workers and consumer protections.

"I also think it’s odd that so many on the left want to remain and wonder it’s party an anti-tory reaction. So many forget that Juncker is the former PM of Luxembourg, a state that is effectively a tax haven for multinationals. The EU allows this. Surely propping up tax havens is against Labour’s principles."

Brilliant post Tulips.
I wonder how many people know that the tiny, corrupt (tax evasion, money laundering) country of Luxembourg, has now provided three heads of the EU, more than any other country, is the second richest in the world per capita, and back in 2015, every Labour MEP voted against Juncker becoming head of the EU.
Considering how rich Luxembourg is, it is surprising that their EU contributions are so small.
I was a lifelong Labour voter, but they seem to be totally out of touch with ordinary hard working people who are their core voters in poorer parts of the South, North West, North East and Midlands.

Indeed, I often think how "the left" was vehemently against globalisation, throughout the '80's all for economic protectionism, also all for the US taking a step back from the world stage. Along comes D Trump and despite his many other failings, the one thing you can say about him is that he is an isolationist and wants to put US jobs first and use tariffs to protect US industries. Left wing economics and anti globalist, but now suddenly the EU and free trade is the be all and end all.

I’m a no deal favouring remained who votes Conservative or Greens depending on labour but will vote Lib Dem if they promise to revoke A50.

I think in these modern days all the rules are torn up and you just go with whoever fits best.

France seems to manage prefectly well with nationalised energy, rail and telecoms sectors and strong workers' rights, so it must be possible to square that with EU rules about competitive procurement by public bodies
Indeed

www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/8627955/First-trucks-now-trains-how-EU-rules-kill-off-our-industries.html

"It was soon apparent, as I reported at the time, that Britain was infinitely more compliant with these directives than any other country – in notable contrast to Germany and France. Engineering World, for instance, reported that 50 per cent of all the engineering contracts advertised in the Journal came from Britain."

Internationalism is an important principle within socialism and the Labour party.

Don't hold Corbyn up as the yardstick for being left wing. His politics are outdated and male-centric.

I am an olf leftie in the Tony Benn/Dennis Skinner/JC until recently EU sceptic camp. I also believe like Tony Benn that there's a democratic deficit in the EU - not saying it's totally undemocratic, just that there's a deficit.

@LakieLady said … France seems to manage prefectly well with nationalised energy, rail and telecoms sectors and strong workers' rights, so it must be possible to square that with EU rules about competitive procurement by public bodies.

The EU doesn't directly ban nationalised industries, but it makes it difficult to renationalise them by limiting state aid. So if renationalisation needs government money spent on it, for example to buy back the water infrastructure, then you can't do it.

But you could probably renationalise the trains as that involves not renewing contracts with private companies, rather than needing to spend a lot of money buying them back.

That's why Jeremy Corbyn, pre referendum, said he was going to renationalise the railways, but not the water, gas and electricity. Then post referendum he said he would renationalise the water and energy, without directly saying why he was now able to consider it.

We are in a worse position than France because we have the Tories keen to privatise our national assets, then the EU prevents us from reversing that in many cases.

I feel betrayed by Labour as I voted for them for years hoping they would reverse the privatisation of the water industry at least. In that case it's not just the rising cost of water bills. Our water supply is vital and should not be left to the mercy of shareholders.

I think many people do not realise just how much the cost of water has risen since privatisation. 30 years ago my water bill for my flat was £35 PER YEAR - so probably about £120 in today's money. I didn't even save for it over the year. Nowadays it's a major household cost.

I don't think the traditional "left-right" spectrum works when you are thinking about issues such as Brexit. I was reading an article recently, in one of the American papers I think, which suggested that the left-right split is being replaced by an open-closed spectrum, dividing those who favour openness in trade/culture/migration etc and those who prefer insularity and barriers. I thought it made quite a bit of sense in the current climate. The author suggested political parties would most likely realign along these lines in the future.

It was in the Washington Post if anyone is interested. A quick google shows "open-closed" politics has been quite widely written about recently.

Not to mention the racism at the core of the EU -- "you're with us if you're a nice white European but if you're BME fleeing death we'll build higher walls"

I have always leaned to the left with my personal politics, but they didn't factor into my referendum choice. I voted remain because I didn't want my family's financial position to become precarious through recession and house prices falling, I wanted to preserve freedom to live and work across many countries, and because I have many European friends who live and work here, and I didn't want them to become ostracised. I couldn't, and still can't see it as anything but destructive.

As for finding a party to vote for, I can only now choose the candidate who is best placed to oust the Tory incumbent in my area. There is no party that reflects my values.