To think it doesn't make sense to be Remainer and left wing?

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First of all, I voted Remain.

But the more I read about Corbyn, the more I think this isn't all clear cut.

Clearly leaving the EU with the Tories in power would be a disaster.

But if we left the EU and had a green or left wing government...

Doesn't the EU, in many ways, just continue propping up a kind of internationalist, globalised and capitalist system? We want to stay within the EU so we can continue FoM and global trading.

But listening to Greta's speech this morning, about needing to enact deep change, shouldn't the truly left wing approach be to stop all politics that focus on international trade and travel?

What do you think? Is this the point of view that JC is coming from?

Not to mention the racism at the core of the EU -- "you're with us if you're a nice white European but if you're BME fleeing death we'll build higher walls"

Because the UK government hostile environment policy is so much more welcoming to asylum seekers. I'm sure all those BME refugees will be welcomed with open arms.

"shouldn't the truly left wing approach be to stop all politics that focus on international trade and travel?"

The Uk hasn't been self-sufficient in food for about a century and depends on other imports too
So Fortress Britain won't work and we have to trade with other countries - it's a question of which ones

Brexit would mean less trade with our nearest neighbours and more trade with countries further away

Remember Farage's "Breaking Point" poster ?

That wasn't welcoming those BME refugees fleeing death;
it was trying to scare people into voting Brexit - to keep them out

Many Brexiters angrily blame Frau Merkel for "forcing them" to vote Brexit,
by allowing in 1 million migrants already at the borders

Leaving Europe doesn't make sense from an environmental viewpoint because if we need it and can't produce it ourselves then we need to look to our closest neighbours, first. On those grounds, buggering up established trade links with those close geographical neighbours makes no sense.

*That's the crux of it though isn't it? No matter what they do they still win elections"

The Tories haven't won a large scale election victory since 1987. Since then they've had tiny majorities, minority governments or coalitions. In the past 20 years, the Tories have had a majority government for about 2 years.

Their voters are getting older and the tipping point at which people are more likely to vote Tory than Labour is now in the 50s.

Yes I think you’re right. To hardcore left wingers the EU represents the capitalist status quo. It’s a barrier to making Britain a true socialist paradise.

And therein lies the true nonsense of Brexit. Everyone who voted for it had a different vision of the outcome.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree op. I think being left wing is essentially about valuing cooperation, rather than competition. The EU is a great example of countries cooperating. That's why the rightwingers hate it and want out, so they can play out their plucky little England against the world fantasies.

To hardcore left wingers the EU represents the capitalist status quo. It’s a barrier to making Britain a true socialist paradise

Absolutely.

Leaving Europe doesn't make sense from an environmental viewpoint because if we need it and can't produce it ourselves then we need to look to our closest neighbours, first. On those grounds, buggering up established trade links with those close geographical neighbours makes no sense.
Yes and no. It encourages perverse and unnecessary movement of stuff -
www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
One small part of a mini engine does 2000 miles all over Europe because of perverse incentives that make it cheap.
Then there's the between 11,000 and 19,000 tonnes of CO2 emissions (EU figures) each year cost of continually moving the EU parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg.

I agree that lexit has a lot of merit in theory, but the fact is, it was never what was on the table. A socialist utopia wouldnt be able to be part of the EU, but we cannot burn everything to the ground and start again

I consider myself left-wing and not particularly pro EU. I voted against joining in the referendum in my home country and we never joined. I still think it would be a total disaster and madness for the UK to leave the EU and with the current right wingers in charge the future is scary.

"I kind of see the Left Leave POV as outlined above but I can't get on board with it when I read how much hedge funds have paid Johnson to crash us out so they can make a fortune shorting the pound and how much 'anti red tape' clamour there is on the right to remove workers and consumer protections."

This. Brexit is a hard right (arguably far right) project. You just have to look at who's funding it, who supports it internationally and who owns the sections of the media that are pushing for it. It's naive to think that the Left can somehow take over and control this particular out-of-control right-wing juggernaut, especially when the current Labour leader is so unpopular (I'm pretty hard left myself and I probably have less severe/ more mixed feelings about Corbyn than most Mumsnetters, but he'd need to have phenomenal popular appeal to steer Brexit to socialist ends and, yeah, he doesn't have that).

The thing that really doesn't make sense is supporting free movement and being left wing. Free movement punishes the working classes disproportionately, undercutting wages, and increasing pressures on the environment, housing, schools, GPs and hospitals. Moreover it robs other, less well off, countries of their own working population.

Middle class lefties enjoy their cheap nannies, builders and baristas too much to care that it's the working class who pay the price for it.

I think that's absolutely the way the hard Left think.

I don't know, or need to know, if I'm a leftie or not.

Corbyn (& others) advocated no tuition fees. This obviously creates huge benefits to kids who already had social advantages to do well on their school exams. So obviously not a left wing policy at all, in my mind. Lots of cheap childcare & early yrs education funding is what you want to promote social equality in education system and between social groups.

Now Labour wants no prescription charges for all. It is OUTRAGEOUS that people like me, financially comfortable, should pay no fees. How can that be a left wing policy?

I like globalism. I am selfish & like cheap high quality tech, efficient supply chains, industrialisation of poor countries where manufacturing can be done cheaper, the social liberation that comes from women working long hours in textile factories in cities. Call me a terrible right wing reactionary for liking women who have more financial independence b/c they work in a factory and not in the fields.

It's not that I'm a fan of capitalism, but it still seems to the only system that most people find reasonably fair and therefore the only stable system.

I guess I can't oppose travel b/c my family lives many time zones away.

I don't know what philosophy JC has. He doesn't say much I agree with.

Do you really think that the people pushing Brexit ie, Farage, Johnson, Banks, the Barcley brothers etc genuinely care about the working class?