Abolishing private schools - how would it work in practice?

[Dongdingdong]

Labour has voted to abolish private schools:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-public-private-school-abolish-eton-vote-conference-corbyn-education-policy-a9115766.html

Whether you agree with this or not, I don’t understand how the logistics would work. Would private schools suddenly cease to exist from say, summer 2023, with all pupils forced to find a place at the local state school for the autumn term onwards? What would happen to the buildings and facilities - would they remain as state schools or be sold off to developers for example?

Harriet do you think if Eton goes the former pupils are all going to disband to inadequate comps and secondary moderns? We'll just have a government composed from the alumni of the most exclusive state schools.

Do you think my dc or any other would be at a failing comprehensive? They wouldn't, I'd have just spent my time and money to guarantee they got the best state schools. If I sold my current home and moved to a desirable London catchment, or expensive south east town, and got the tax payer to foot the £6k, possibly more or so per year, in which way does this change anything, apart from the cost to the tax payer? Or perhaps I just keep my privileged rural life and elbow someone out of the church school to the failing comprehensive. Or with two bright dc, deprive equally bright but poorer dc of a grammar place.

Why would it be acceptable for me to do any of those, and then bang on about the unfairness that eg a pair of teachers in Grimsby are paying a few thousand for a discounted place at nowheresville private school?

And of course it makes logical sense, there's no point banning one avenue of unfairness because we'll just join everyone that's already going down the other path of unfairness. Plus the fact there are a hell of a lot more being disadvantaged by the differences in state provision than there are private.

Good post @TrainspottingWelsh.

It’s not even that popular among Labour voters.

Of course it isn't. Because most people are not in the slightest bit affected by the presence of private schools.

I’m not in favour of class war or authoritarian socialism either 🤣! I am a capitalist. I just make a special case for education because I also believe passionately in social mobility.

Ok - you’re prepared to accept this special case of class war and authoritarian socialism!

I still struggle to see why 50% of people appear to be in favour of something they have never benefited from (and statistically are likely to be/have been disadvantaged by).

Because they appreciate the schools’ excellence? The benefit of living in a free society where you can spend your own money as you please? A society in which the government can’t just confiscate private property and destroy ancient institutions on a whim? You might as well argue that Belgravia and Kensington should be flattened just because only a small proportion of the population can afford to live there. Some capitalist you are!

Harriet do you think if Eton goes the former pupils are all going to disband to inadequate comps and secondary moderns? We'll just have a government composed from the alumni of the most exclusive state schools.

Maybe so, but there’s at least a possibility that they wouldn’t all have paid to get there.

Do you think my dc or any other would be at a failing comprehensive? They wouldn't, I'd have just spent my time and money to guarantee they got the best state schools. If I sold my current home and moved to a desirable London catchment, or expensive south east town, and got the tax payer to foot the £6k, possibly more or so per year, in which way does this change anything, apart from the cost to the tax payer? Or perhaps I just keep my privileged rural life and elbow someone out of the church school to the failing comprehensive. Or with two bright dc, deprive equally bright but poorer dc of a grammar place. Firstly, the comprehensives may no longer be failing. Secondly, every parent will do the best for their kid. There’s nothing wrong with that. But by making it harder for parents to jump the queue (and what you’re suggesting is harder than just forking out the dosh) you make it that bit easier for other families less fortunate than you.

Why would it be acceptable for me to do any of those, and then bang on about the unfairness that eg a pair of teachers in Grimsby are paying a few thousand for a discounted place at nowheresville private school? well it wouldn’t!

And of course it makes logical sense, there's no point banning one avenue of unfairness because we'll just join everyone that's already going down the other path of unfairness. Plus the fact there are a hell of a lot more being disadvantaged by the differences in state provision than there are private. I still think your argument boils down to, we can’t fix everything so let’s not bother at all. I don’t agree with that approach.

I think there might be a few state school parents looking at it as if Labour had just announced that they were going to abolish private dentists. People thinking ‘hang on, the NHS can’t cope with a load more people signing up as patients, and now my chances of seeing a good NHS dentist any time soon are totally fucked’.

@CendrillonSings there are lots and lots of instances where we can’t spend our money as we please in this society. The question is where you draw the line. You can’t spend your money to get out of prison (directly!) or into a top job (again, directly!). We all (mostly) pay taxes and so that money is not ours to spend as we please. It’s not inconsistent with capitalism and a free society to think that should be limits to what our money can and should do.

I don’t agree with confiscating private property - not sure where you’ve got that from. The Belgravia analogy is silly as I said I think education is exceptional and happy to go into the reasons for that if not obvious.

Finally, just because something is an “ancient institution” does not mean we should keep it. There are plenty of institutions and attitudes historically that we are appalled by today.

I think a few genuinely believe that seizing assets will mean that their dcs will get the equivalent of a free private education

I don’t agree with confiscating private property - not sure where you’ve got that from.

The Labour Party - they’re going to seize the schools’ assets and redistribute them as they see fit. Try reading the vile bullshit to which you so freely lend your support, and have a think about the precedent set in case Labour ever casts a greedy eye over your business or your assets...

Finally, just because something is an “ancient institution” does not mean we should keep it.

Yeah, who needs the rich web of history and culture that our nation has built up over centuries? You must be some kind of Year Zero capitalist.

That was tried in Maoist China.

The only possibly explanation is that the Labour party has now decided they need to do everything possible to make Jeremy unelectable. He will sit on the fence whilst they nationalise schools and introduce 4 day weeks. They really don't want to win, do they ?

@Cendrillonsings I support the abolition of private schools, that’s not the same thing as wholesale support for labour’s policy. I’ve just told you I don’t support the confiscation of private property. There’s no need to get worked up about it.

And I think you must agree with me that ancient institutions aren’t good solely because they’re ancient. Lots of our ancient institutions excluded women historically on grounds that they were inferior for example.

If you don’t think the private school buildings should be turned into state school buildings, then where do you think the private school kids will now go to school? State school down the road?

I support the abolition of private schools, that’s not the same thing as wholesale support for labour’s policy. I’ve just told you I don’t support the confiscation of private property. There’s no need to get worked up about it.

Well, the only party in the UK that will ever implement this deranged policy is Labour, and if they do it, they’ll do it through confiscation. So actually I will get a bit worked up by misguided idealism that strikes at the underpinnings of our society.

And I think you must agree with me that ancient institutions aren’t good solely because they’re ancient. Lots of our ancient institutions excluded women historically on grounds that they were inferior for example.

Indeed. For example, Oxford and Cambridge have now admitted women for decades. But we didn’t just go and fucking abolish them because they were men-only, did we?

@noblegiraffe (assume that’s aimed at me) I haven’t given it a great deal of thought (I’m not a politician) but I’d imagine there are lots of options and they may vary depending on the location. It wouldn’t be a one size fits all answer. There would obviously be a massive practical headache but if it’s something that had the support of a majority that could be worked out. (We have embarked on Brexit after all...)

@CendrillonSings

Indeed. For example, Oxford and Cambridge have now admitted women for decades. But we didn’t just go and fucking abolish them because they were men-only, did we?

No, we widened access to the group they excluded. Now what would the analogy be for the private schools I wonder?

PS you can get worked up with me, a random stranger on the internet all you like, but it ain’t gonna change labour’s (or anyone’s) policies.

They really are not going to abolish private schools, honestly. They are floating the idea to shift the Overton window or whatever it is called. By encouraging public debate about something as extreme as abolishing private schools, they can make sure that when they backtrack and merely abolish private schools' charitable status, it won't seem so outlandish any more.

FWIW, getting rid of the tax breaks for private schools is a very good idea in principle, but I do wonder how it works out in practice--we already lack enough teachers in the state sector!

Thank you millie

Harriet

Of course the now ex Etonians would have paid for the best schools, via property instead of fees.

I've put two dc through private. How would it not be exactly the same as splashing the cash to have bought into an excellent catchment? Or an excellent tutor? Not to mention that privilege means I have far more leisure to pursue church than most. It's exactly the same, using privilege to advantage my dc. Except unlike with private to the direct detriment of those less privileged. How many fsm kids are in grammars, or the top comprehensives? Do you really think they are proportional? We all buy education one way or another, and our privilege dictates how many choices we have. Removing one of my choices doesn't mean Mrs benefits top up level salary is suddenly endowed with a second choice beyond 'nearest failing comp'.

Admittedly on a personal note moving to any city is my personal idea of hell, but moving to a nice catchment would be easier and cheaper than paying for private. I'd manage on the outskirts of a town with a few acres to ensure the outstanding school.

Also re the Grimsby scenario, that's absolutely what is happening. It isn't just the big public boarding schools and a handful of prestigious day schools in the private sector.

I'd also love to know how you think there won't be any failing schools.

I think we should fix things. But actually fix them. Not make wanky and ultimately pointless gestures as a distraction. There's no complex legalities preventing religious criteria being banned by the next round of admissions, dropping the 11+ and then just holding a lottery for the most popular schools. By next year something that works outside the bigger towns and cities for all schools could also be put in place. That's before you even increase funding or do anything too complicated. But it's far more fun to bang on about private's. And lets be honest, he could promise everyone a unicorn because he's never going to be in a position to follow it through.

noble yy, plus all the people concerned about what else seizing assets could lead to.

PS you can get worked up with me, a random stranger on the internet all you like, but it ain’t gonna change labour’s (or anyone’s) policies.

Oh no, for that I’ve got my vote, and for the first time ever I’m sufficiently motivated to give money to and campaign for any party that will prevent Labour MPs being elected!

I haven’t given it a great deal of thought (I’m not a politician)

You seem to assume that the politicians have given it thought. They haven’t. There are doubts that it’s legal even before you get into practicalities.
There’s the assumption that private school teachers will just suddenly happily become state school teachers (they won’t).

And there isn’t enough capacity in the state system for the kids we’ve already got, let alone 600,000 new ones. Critical shortage of teachers, buildings not fit for purpose.

@noblegiraffe it would be possible (albeit difficult) - it’s been done in other countries. As I said, it’s a lot more straightforward than Brexit.

Leaving the practicalities aside, the question of principle is whether we as a society think it’s right to institutionalise a means for a privileged subset of society to pay for advantages for their children that will alter the course of their lives, at the expense of those who can’t afford to do the same.

I don’t think that’s right. Maybe you do - just own that, don’t hide behind it all just being too difficult.

it’s been done in other countries.

And was their state education totally fucked and expected to absorb an extra 600,000 kids at the same time? If not, bringing other countries into it is totally pointless.

I actually think private schools fundamentally shouldn’t exist. But, unlike you, I cannot leave the practicalities aside. It’s the practicalities that make this a stupid policy.

I’m a state school teacher. Labour should stop fannying around with stupid pie in the sky policies and come up with some practical and sensible ways of fixing the state system. It needs new buildings, way more teachers, and most importantly a long period of stability without stupid massive overhauls.