Abolishing private schools - how would it work in practice?

[Dongdingdong]

Labour has voted to abolish private schools:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-public-private-school-abolish-eton-vote-conference-corbyn-education-policy-a9115766.html

Whether you agree with this or not, I don’t understand how the logistics would work. Would private schools suddenly cease to exist from say, summer 2023, with all pupils forced to find a place at the local state school for the autumn term onwards? What would happen to the buildings and facilities - would they remain as state schools or be sold off to developers for example?

Theone. Scholarships are awarded to gifted students. Bursaries are means tested.

Independent schools offer both, often in conjunction.

Removing charitable status doesn’t just remove those, it would stop schools offering a variety of other opportunities to state school pupils including use of their facilities.

I haven’t read the full thread (sorry). I can see that there are lots of practical difficulties but in general, it appears that most people seem to accept that it is ok to buy an advantage for your child’s education, which advantage will likely benefit them for the rest of their life, regardless of their merit. I think education should be a universal right in this country and to seek to entrench disadvantage in a way that effectively punishes innocent children is fundamentally wrong. It is simply not analogous to private healthcare or pensions or anything else. Other countries (eg Finland) have abolished private schools. It is strange to me that just because they are so established in our society, most people don’t think to question them even though they actually benefit only a tiny proportion of the most privileged (which, by definition, the vast majority don’t fall into). If you’re not sending your own child to private school then why you wouldn’t want them to be abolished is completely beyond me.

Forgive me for muddling the terms. So bursaries are means tested? Great. And if two students have the same means (or lack of) and one stands a better chance of boosting the school’s results, who is chosen?
You get my drift don’t you?
No axes ground here either. Two high attaining state schoolers in our house. One Cambridge, the other a more specialist institution. I just feel local schools really can’t compete when shiny private schools offer ‘talent’ cheaper places. Sure this might be great for individuals (tho many scholarships are only give small discounts), but comps can’t compete in some areas where they are surrounded by private schools
It’s a subtle argument, but one I’ve seen played out in two areas I’ve lived in.

Harriet I have one that's just left, one that's in y11. So abolishing them would make no odds to me, it wouldn't happen before the youngest finished y13. But I'm not an mp so I don't have the hypocrisy to deny other people's children the same opportunity, nor the duplicity to pretend doing so would offer an equal state education for all.

or are they also planning to find additional money to fund the higher salaries and benefits of independent sector teachers?

Higher salary and benefits? I can’t speak for all private schools, but the one I work at pays staff considerably under the going rate in state schools. We work hard - smaller classes, yes, but I mark more often and I am expected to cover colleagues (supply only in a dire emergency) and work through lunch and after school with extra curricula opportunities for the children. My ‘added’ is built into my performance management so no slacking possible. The school building is very old and uninspiring. Sure, grounds are extensive, but no more so than the majority of local high schools. There isn’t a path of gold leading to the front door, despite what so many people on here seem to think.

Theone it may not be the case near you, or you are possibly referring to smaller bursaries. But in most areas the income level of any dc entitled to a full bursary make private a more likely possibility than getting into the type of comprehensive that sends any dc to top universities.

but comps can’t compete in some areas where they are surrounded by private schools

Can't compete how? Do you expect private schools and state schools to be the same?

@TrainspottingWelsh I’m not sure that anyone is saying that it would offer “an equal state education for all”. But it would help improve things. Just because something is not a total solution doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing. I don’t judge people for wanting the best for their children. But not everyone can afford it and this is one example where I think people shouldn’t have the option because, as a society, we should be doing everything we can to make education as universal as possible. Of course people will always play the system etc, but right now unfairness and inequality IS the system.

What unfairness? Every child has the chance of a free education? Every child can take A levels or btecs and go to university? Where are all these sad state school teens failing to get any uni offers because private school kids have taken them all?

My two children both have special educational needs, we are far from wealthy but the local Prep. school could see that they could help our children in the much smaller classes there and the traditional way of teaching. So they gave us a very substantial bursary. Nothing at all to do with merit. I am pretty sure it's against their charitable status to award Bursaries on merit.
I think the education dept should be learning from the private sector and improve the offering to all school pupils and not try to pull down the standards provided by the private sector just so everyone can have the same!

@trewser plainly private schools are “better” otherwise why pay for them. They give children an advantage based on parental means not merit. I think this is unfair. You may disagree but don’t wilfully misrepresent the situation.

So do you not believe any child should have any advantage that money can supply?

This would be such a negative move. If people wanted there kids in state schools then they would put them in them. Wish I could send my daughter to private school but I dont think she would want to leave her friends

@trewser that’s not what I said. Obviously there are lots of things where parental means will make a difference and I don’t suggest preventing that (how could you?!). But education is a massive and fundamental thing. It affects your life chances and career options for potentially the rest of your life. We can’t fix all aspects of disadvantage but we should do our best to provide as level a playing field as possible.

State schools are not all equal now so I don’t see how adding ex private schools into the mix would make everything more equal.
Some local comps would still be failing whilst others are outstanding. And even if you did away with the official ratings of schools the local parents will still know which are the crap schools to be avoided.

Well why not campaign for better state schools as many have suggested. Maybe listen to the reasons why private school parents believe private education gives an advantage and campaign to make state schools more like them.

Honestly, the endless threads on here about the evils of uniform and compulsory sport, I don't think most parents could begin to cope with private education.

I disagree harriet. Abolishing private will make fuck all difference to dc in a Kent secondary modern, or a failing Blackpool comprehensive. 7% of kids at private or not has no impact on the 30 odd % of pupils at schools that are rated as below standard.

Not everyone lives in a county that benefits from the unfair funding allocation. Not everyone can afford to live in the areas where the better comprehensives usually are. Not everyone has the time or ability to suck up at church every week. Not everyone has dc either able enough to pass 11+, or able enough to pass with enough expensive tuition. Not everyone has dc nt, or passes as near enough to get an equal education in the current system.

Ban all of that state sponsored unfairness that disadvantages a far greater number of children than private does, and I'll absolutely agree that private should go too.

Never going to happen, not even feasible.

They are desperate to rally support as they have as much chance as the muppets to get elected. Scratch that, I'd rather the muppets were elected rather than labour.

@Trewser state schools can’t compete with private schools because they don’t have anywhere near the same resources. This is the whole point and you must know this. If private schools weren’t an option then the “campaign” to make state schools better would suddenly have a lot more voices in support of it. Again, this is the whole point. You obviously think it’s ok to pay to give your child an advantage and who cares about those that can’t. That is an understandable view for one individual to take but as a society we should be making decisions about what is best for the country as a whole.

@Trainspottingwelsh so you’re saying that because there are inequalities in the state system there’s no point in doing anything about the massive inequality that is the private system? That argument doesn’t make any logical sense: why should you make one positive change conditional on another? Abolishing private schools may not benefit every single state school child, but it is one step in the right direction.

harriet the resources are a tiny part of what makes private schools better. I've said this before, but you can't buy ethos.

@trewser with all due respect that is absolutely laughable.

Harriet you have absolutely no idea.

@trewser you don’t know anything about me, my background, my experience of school types, my profession. I could ignore you but I am interested in what you’re on about so do enlighten me. “Ethos” is a nebulous and essentially meaningless concept when you’re using it to generalise about a large number of schools which are all different and have different “ethoses” - what’s the uniting factor that distinguishes them from state schools and makes all the difference in your view?

Sadly for you, Harriet, it looks like the 93% aren’t in favour of class war and authoritarian socialism:

mobile.twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1176232035905679365

For banning private schools: 22%
Against banning private schools: 50%

22% is even lower than the percentage willing to vote Labour!

I’m not in favour of class war or authoritarian socialism either 🤣! I am a capitalist. I just make a special case for education because I also believe passionately in social mobility. I still struggle to see why 50% of people appear to be in favour of something they have never benefited from (and statistically are likely to be/have been disadvantaged by).