Abolishing private schools - how would it work in practice?

[Dongdingdong]

Labour has voted to abolish private schools:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-public-private-school-abolish-eton-vote-conference-corbyn-education-policy-a9115766.html

Whether you agree with this or not, I don’t understand how the logistics would work. Would private schools suddenly cease to exist from say, summer 2023, with all pupils forced to find a place at the local state school for the autumn term onwards? What would happen to the buildings and facilities - would they remain as state schools or be sold off to developers for example?

Even McDonnell has openly said he can't support the policy in it's current form.

Who should I believe - McDonnell or Raynes? What do you think?

of course they don't get noticed in the state sector. They get noticed at local and regional sports clubs. Then they apply for scholarships to private schools

So, your child gets 20 to 50% of the £24k day fee paid by the school....who pays the rest?
Still only for the rich! it completely ignores the chances of a talented kid from a poorer background.

Especially true in sports that require expensive equipment/time off to compete or train and/or travel, your state child won't ever get the chance to compete at any level.

I've some experience in this having witnessed what happens in a private school compared to a good comp, it really is very unfair.

The savings from business rates is approx 500m over 5 years in England & Wales, so 100m a year. Source:

www.thirdsector.co.uk/private-schools-will-save-522m-business-rates-tax-relief-next-five-years/finance/article/1436191

Let’s assume there are 500k private pupils (trying to account for Scotland), that works out at approx £200 per pupil. Now for some schools with less valuable properties that discount will be less for others like Eton closer to £500. That discount isn’t paying for many £70,000 teachers.

By all means scrap business rates relief but it will have little impact to school budgets. Vat will have a bigger impact but will be offset by some move from private to state.

Yes state schools pay business rates but it is cyclical money - remove the need to pay it and budgets will be cut, as councils will no longer have this income to give back to the schools.

As said by previous posters I don’t think schools and associated assets can simply be transferred on mass. Litigation would tie this up for years. Compensation would also need to be paid and would be unaffordable.

The schools could also cut back on bursaries which would be a shame.

jasjas1973

The local private we were considering for DD gives 100% bursaries for various reasons - academic, sports, drama.

To be fair jasjas plenty of talented sports teens are successful through talent pathways organised by their sport. What private school can do is ensure their sport and academics work well together. But anyway, state schools will need to learn how to do this in Labour's brave new world!

The local private we were considering for DD gives 100% bursaries for various reasons - academic, sports, drama

Do you mean 100% scholarships? Bursaries should be means tested. ie a talented Regional swimmer mught get a scholarship worth 25 percent then a 60 percent bursary which would be means tested.

The bottom line is we have a failing state education system, we often come in the bottom 1/2 of international league tables.

WTF Jas what are you talking about? The UK came 15th out of 70 in the 2015 PISA league tables for science. In the twenties for Maths and Reading.

I don't understand why some posters on MN (Momentum spies...) are adamant that it's all not true and we're all being duped by the Daily Mail/Express (like we're all avidly reading these papers for our news....) .

Surely you are supportive of these aims, no? Surely you are desirous of confiscation of private property, especially that of private/public schools? Surely you believe that LVT is an admirable policy, as a means of ending house wealth?

Put your (other people's) money where your mouth is, and stand up for these policies if you believe in them!

The fees at my dd school are over 33k, and dependant on family income. Most receive bursaries, well over 90%. The others have rich parents, who can afford it.
Anyone who passes the auditions are offered a place, irrespective of income.
There are children of multi millionaires and children from sink estates, with everything in between.
The children perform lots of outreach work to inspire and inform others of what the school has to offer.
They also play for people with dementia and report that this is so rewarding when one of them recognises a song.

I think it could work but they'd have to turn all the private schools into comprehensive academies, do the same with the remaining grammars and use financial incentives to draw the best teachers into the poorer areas to avoid a situation where everyone rushes to buy near the 'good' schools. Ofsted would also need to stop making their gradings publicly available.

Maybe they should focus on how the pull up failing schools. Why are they failing? Not because some kid down the road goes to private school.

I knew someone in his 70s now who was in a fee paying school that somehow was converted to a grammar I think. He explained to me that it was something they did after the war. Not sure of the details but I think the school benefited in some way by the conversion.

If it can practically be delivered (and I can see challenges with delivery) would it only upset the 7% or thereabouts that use fee paying schools or would the upset go deeper and wider. I am more interested in the practical application of such a policy.

Do you mean 100% scholarships? Bursaries should be means tested. ie a talented Regional swimmer mught get a scholarship worth 25 percent then a 60 percent bursary which would be means tested

Both. They offer 100% scholarships. They also offer means tests 100% bursaries. Separate entities.

@ALoadOfTwaddle - yeah but what is the probability this will work in the way they want: I’d say v low.

Both. They offer 100% scholarships. They also offer means tests 100% bursaries. Separate entities

But they dont offer 100% bursaries for drama and sport. They offer 100% scholarships for drama and sport. 100% buraaries for those who would benefit but can't pay the fees.

yeah but what is the probability this will work in the way they want: I’d say v low

What's the probability they'll get companies to pay for a four-day working week? It's all pie in the sky.

I'm loving the idea that somehow everyone is going to get their hands on a free private education! You can't buy ethos and work ethic I'm afraid. All the tennis courts and parquet floored assembly halls won't mean pupils will stop being disruptive and hard to teach.

But they dont offer 100% bursaries for drama and sport. They offer 100% scholarships for drama and sport. 100% buraaries for those who would benefit but can't pay the fees

Before DD did the exam we got offered both. They suggested on the strength of her potential
Exam she could have a 100% scholarship. If she didn’t make the grade she could have a 100% single parent bursary. (Which I didn’t in fact need...).

Both offered on the strength of her school reports.

We were also offered cost help towards the extra-curriculars of her choice.

She chose elsewhere

I can’t believe anyone is genuinely stupid enough to believe that scrapping private will make education equal for all. You only need to glance at league tables to see that some state schools are a lot closer to private than they are the less desirable end of the sector.

Even putting aside the fact the likes of Eton aren’t representative of the entire sector, if it didn’t exist we’d just find politics was dominated by alumni of x European boarding school, wealthyville grammar or £1million house catchment comprehensive. We wouldn’t see a new generation of power emerging from deprived coastal secondaries or the inner city failing type.

Regarding charity, plenty of the well established richer schools do have 20% of pupils on bursaries, and would like to offer more. What needs to change are those spreading that pot as thinly as possible to get as many already privileged bums on seats as possible for a slight discount.

Ditto outreach. Eg dc’s school does a lot to promote their further education support/ advice so anyone can benefit, and everyone can access it. Another local private supposedly does the same, but only the very nice church schools sixth form seems to be made directly aware, and at times that would make it impossible to access by rural public transport. Ditto pretty much every other form of charity work/ outreach, but on paper they both do the same. That is what needs reviewing.

They offered you a 100% bursary with no financial information from you? Avoid!

They offered you a 100% bursary with no financial information from you?

No they offered it if it applies

Avoid!

Gosh thanks awfully but I’m pretty sure I can manage 😂

I think their idea is that the state would simply take over the schools, the buildings, the staff, and the endowments, thus making them comprehensives. (This is a bit of a legal minefield, though).
In practise, this would mean, same school, but whoopee, no fees to pay.
(not me, my DC went to state schools)

Alternatively, they could abolish the charitable status, but then there would be no incentive for schools to maintain their bursaries, or share their facilities, their various outreach programs.
Also, I think this is a bit of a minefield, as not all independent schools have charitable status, and it depends on the legal definition of a charity, and how the school is setup.
However, supposing all independent schools were somehow abolished, then I guess the smaller schools would close, forcing those students into the state sector. The more prestigious schools would just move abroad, to France or Ireland, and remember, many have overseas students which currently add to the economy, would thus benefit other countries.
Would this include Jewish Schools, Madrassas?
And where would Diane Abbott and Shami Chakrabarti send their children to, once independent school are abolished?

Assuming you managed to abolish all independent schools, rich people would continue to have extra private tuition for their children, as I believe, Tony Blair did for one of his.
You could try to abolish private tuition, but how would this be monitored? Would it include ballet lessons, football coaching, music lessons, or just after school extra maths lessons?
Once you have abolished all extra private tuition, then remember that teachers are parents too, and you would have to ban them from teaching their own children, or taking them to museums, etc.
As many dedicated parents give their children such an unfair advantage, you could try and create a society where children are removed from their parents as much as possible (to make it fairer).
Some people think we are getting there already, as nowadays both parents often have to work, and children placed in day care.

Hmm. Abolishing ownership of private property and assets and redistributing them to the state - the last people who did that included Stalin and Mugabe. And look how well that turned out.

There are different kinds of private schools - the old boy network kind like Eton, or the ones based on passing entrance exams and interviews with entry based on merit and potential, not on who you know or who your dad was, and where you live. Abolishing private schools achieves nothing- people with money and privilege will just move house to the best endowed state schools and use private tutoring to get into university and courses with the best access to powerful careers.

Grammar schools are even less democratic- only accessible to those with coaching (either from private tutors or from school- usually private preps) as the margins are not between 40% versus 60% but more like 90% versus 91%. The number of pupils who could actually pass an entrance exam to grammar schools without coaching or extra workbooks (that a parent must "know" which to buy) is about 0.001%! Wonder what Rayner and Corbyn plan to do about grammar schools!

Private schools that are based on merit and potential at least allow pupils and parents choice without having to move house to be in the catchment area of their chosen school, or without specialist, expensive and intensive coaching/tutoring.

Virtually all parents I know who sent their children to private school don't do so because of wanting privileged access to power or highest paid jobs, but simply to be in a supportive environment where bullying, crime and disruption are not tolerated, and students are encouraged to do their best rather than being belittled for being "different" ie not sporty, not cool, not trendy etc (which has been a long-standing "tradition" of a lot of state schools in our area).

Our local council has actually said they rely on private schools to provide primary and secondary school places to a significant percentage (over 10%) of children in our area. There are numerous cases of families forced to use private primary (infant and junior) schools because the council couldn't cope with numbers and ended up allocating them to schools up to 5 or 6 miles away from home. Some have had no school place at all. There aren't even enough secondary school places to educate over 30% of the secondary age children in the borough. The council will have to increase council taxes by over 40% to provide school places to all students currently in private education here, hitting who the hardest? - you guessed it....the low income and poorest families.

Make uni entry available in the same proportion as state v private.

Sorted.

To howls of outrage.