To ask childfree/less members what you have done differently to plan for old age?

[Riponblues]

DH and I are in our 30's and likely to remain childfree by choice, a decision I've made my peace with....as long as I don't think too hard about my old age!

I am very close to my parents and when the time comes I will be there to help them to vet potential care homes, drive them to appointments, assist with bills and paperwork, take them shopping and generally advocate for their best interests.

Assuming DH dies before I do, I will have no one to do the same for me.

I have nieces and nephews but they will have their own parents to care for and whilst I have good relationships with them all, I certainly wouldn't say we are "close" in that way and I have no expectations of them.

I'm interested to know what others in my position have done to prepare for old age. Have you had any special changes to your will? Or made a living will? How do you plan to combat loneliness? For those of you without children who have good relationships with your parents do you also fear the day that they are no longer here?

Wow, I totally expect my DC to look after me in my old age.

Do they know this? And are they happy with it?

I'm resigned to ending up in some grim care home, and hoping that I'll be too gaga to mind. At least they can use my house to pay the fees.

Our parents actively encouraged us to go hundreds of miles away for university and then careers and it worked! They in their turn moved to a bigger city away from family for careers (medicine and teaching) so we are not the sort of family that will have mother next door etc. What my father did was pay for care at home - it cost him £130k in the last year for all day an d night dementia care in his own home and he died at home as he wanted. My mother died before him and a bit more quickly and at home too.

People who say they'll have enough money to provide for themselves in old age. Do you know how much a care home costs? It can be around £4000 a month for even an average one. I've known people to be in homes 10 years plus, particularly with dementia.

I definitely don't want my dcs providing personal care for me. We looked after mil for around 10 years and it was miserable and stressful, particularly for dh. I don't want to put anyone through that thanks.

I'm hoping assisted dying is available by the time I'm older. I also have an Advance Directive to refuse feeding tubes and antibiotics etc.

I think it's selfish to expect family members to provide care. People have enough on their plates with working, paying for a home, healthcare and raising any dcs. Life is complicated and stressful now and it's not in my nature to add to the burden. People used to die in a timely fashion even just 20 years ago. Now, they keep you going for as long as possible - a lot of it due to litigation fears and doctors attitudes (every death is a failure, Shipman, litigation, moral cowardice etc.).

I suspect quite a few people posting here are too young to have had much experience of caring for the elderly. My widowed MiL died a year ago at the age of 95 after 18 years of living with dementia and I can assure you that every day spent looking after her was hard, frustrating work.

We did a lot of caring for her and we have the satisfaction of knowing we did the right thing – but at massive cost in terms of the hours invested and the job and other opportunities refused, the anxiety, the thousands of miles driven at night, in the rain and the snow, our own children's needs ignored while we sorted out some MIL-related emergency, the holidays ruined because MiL refused to have outside help or go into respite care and then fell and broke a bone or had a meltdown... My partner's health is only now improving after years of overwork and lack of sleep.

When you start caring for someone elderly it's probably with the expectation that it will only be for a year or two and that either death or social services will come along and relieve you. Don't bet on it.

If you're lucky 'care' can be a visit a couple of times a week to a happy aged parent who lives just a few miles away in a flat with a warden. You do the crossword, help them with online shopping and have the occasional day out. If they have a stroke or dementia but don't want to go into a care home (or if a suitable care home isn't available or affordable) it can become a full-time job that covers everything from bottom-wiping, feeding and hearing the same old stories fifty times a day with all the housework, cooking, laundry, gardening and house-maintenance thrown in.

Are you all really suggesting that you will expect your 50-something- daughters (it's always the daughters, rarely the sons) away from their own families to take this on? What if they live hundreds of miles away from you? What if they have their own children and grandchildren to support? What if they have rewarding careers?

I'll bet it's those of us who've been careers who have written our Advance Directives. We know what hell it can be both for the elderly involved and for those who look after them. There are far worse things in life than dying.

I have no plans. I will try and provide for myself financially of course but you can't magic a support network, you just have to hope.

Isn’t it possible to be involved even from another continent? Isn’t it possible for children to fully have their own lives elsewhere and yet to maintain good and even close relationships with parents through adulthood?

Living somewhere else certainly makes things a bit different and lots of practical things less easy.....but not to the point of no involvement. A child on another continent who speaks regularly on the phone and so who knows the issues before and as they arise, who is there to talk things through with, or who might be able to help put things in place even from a distance, can be a great emotional support. These relationships don’t just happen as parents get to thei 80s and 90s, but need to be relationships when they’re in their 50s, 60s, 70s. That’s the best planning - for emotional support which we all need - and it’s a 2 way thing.

And for those without children, friendship groups of other childless people can be a real support. People have to be willing to genuinely lean on others though, and Brits are not good at doing this and worry about inconveniencing. It can work though, although lots prefer to pay instead.

I think there is a balance with children caring for parents.

On the one hand I kind of hope that if the hospital phone my kids to say it is time to turn my ventilator off and would they like to say goodbye first then I hope they don’t say “nah - just switch it off - holby’s on tonight and I don’t want to miss it”.

On the other hand I definitely definitely don’t want them doing physical caring for me.

I think the answer is planning. Money matters in this case - if there is enough money then the decisions are much easier. Keeping on top of the finances and paperwork so if I am unable to make decisions then it isn’t too hard for them as everything is organised and easy to find. But on top of that - having a plan. My children won’t need to do endless tours of care homes as I will already have toured them, rated them, given my favorite and explained why. They won’t need to agonise as to whether I would want antibiotics for my UTI if I have dementia as I will have written the answer down.

Once I retire (not for nearly 30 years - scarily retirement has been 30 years away for me for over a decade now!!!!) I intend to plan absolutely everything including my funeral (I like the “stop all the clocks” reading).

I can then give the document to both kids (regularly updating it) and they can get on with their lives knowing that when asked about shoes to bury me in they don’t have to worry - it’ll be there in Section 4, paragraph d.

That makes me very happy.

Isn’t it possible to be involved even from another continent? Isn’t it possible for children to fully have their own lives elsewhere and yet to maintain good and even close relationships with parents through adulthood?

Absolutely it is I am one of those adult children. I am very fond of my parents, and we Skype very regularly, and bring DS (7) to visit as often as we can. They also came to us several times a year before they became frailer. But I don't think that's what the posters who expect their children to 'care' for them in old age mean they are expecting daily care, shopping, chores, transport to hospital appointments etc for their daughters and DILs.

And yes, there's a powerful sexism at play in the expectation that this invisible care work is the 'natural' job of female relatives.

Pension savings.

I help care for my DM and it is 24/7, exhausting and relentless. She refuses to go into a home. I suspect many of those who expect their kids to care for them have no experience of intense hands-on personal care.

I’m not sure many people expect full time care to be provided by their children. I’m not sure I got that impression at all.

You’re right it almost always falls on women. What’s the answer to that, because it’s not right. Maintaining relationships between parents and sons is very important.

I take the view that I need to maintain my relationship with my parents and with my children. It’s a pleasure to do so - sometimes harder work than others, but my relationships with them today matter to me a lot. I will put things in place for old age - money and plans. And I’d hope to discuss these plans with my children and to help my parents make their own plans. And to a degree which we decide, we will be in it together until the end. Quite what that will look like will depend on our old ages - do we have dementia, how long we live etc. Full time care of living together probably isn’t on the cards, but genuine support which will involve some kind of sacrifice probably is. We don’t know how it will turn out, but my parents know I will be with them in some form and I’d like to think my children will choose the same - but it will be their choice. When people choose it, it’s different to it being expected. You have to consider why people choose to be a support on some form or to not.

wombat, that's being involved, it's not hands-on caring which seems to be expected by some posters here.

Daily phone calls and Skype are fine in their own way but they don't get the physical aspect of caring done – well, not unless you are so wealthy you are able to instruct others via phone and email to do the cleaning, finding fresh underwear, sorting out the problem with the radiators, checking on medication, sorting out the broken front-door-lock-type issues that need dealing with. How I would have loved to be able to 'care' for my MiL via Skype!

I don't expect, or want, my DC to look after me in my old age. If they're local and they pop round to change a washer in a leaky tap now and again that's one thing, but if I slip into some sort of terminal decline, especially a slow one, I don't want them giving up work, social and family life to wipe my bum. Equally, clearly being a cold and heartless person, I wouldn't do it for my own mum or DH's parents.

I suggest some of you might benefit from reading threads in the Elderly Parents section, and I concur with the posters who think that many of you have not had extended experience of caring for an elderly parent with significant needs, or you wouldn’t be thinking of putting your children through it.

sorry OP i missed your post about community

i always fancied living somewhere isolated but stay in london for mum. at 43, i have realised it will probably not happen as i'm likely to want to stay near my people, so to speak.

and also be in easy distance of amenities etc.

You’re right, I haven’t done extended personal caring for a relative. I know people who have and agree it has a huge impact on their lives.

It’s a funny one, because most people don’t want to take over the lives of their children totally, but also lots of people say they don’t want to ever go into a home and either through their lives, or in the later parts, tell their children this or extract promises that they won’t be put in a home......cue many years of unremitting caring.

I feel I’m prepared to make sacrifices and absolutely should be willing to do this. I haven’t done it yet and don’t know the reality of what it might be, but also know I’m not prepared for my whole life to be taken over. Quite what that middle ground looks like or if it’s feasible I don’t know. I can see that having lots of money put aside always gives more options.
I agree that it’s not reasonable to expect or demand full time personal care from family. If they want to give it, is different. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to Hope your children will be involved in some formif you’ve maintained good relationships with them - and as I said before, those good relationships are something we do have an element of control over - with the pleasure being now and in the good times and not just something for the hard times.

All credit to those who’ve cared for others in the heaviest forms particularly, but also in the forms you worked out as possible for you. You have my admiration.

I wonder if the PPs expecting their children to provide care in later years have factored in that, with the raising of retirement ages, those children could be working until well into their 70s? Parents may well need that care long their children retire and the children may not be in a financial position to retire early.

I'm also not convinced that they'll be fit and well enough to be caring for aged parents at that age, either.

People have to be willing to genuinely lean on others though, and Brits are not good at doing this and worry about inconveniencing.

A good point. I am single with no children. I have already downsized, though I didn’t need to yet either for physical or financial reasons. I have a sibling but no close younger family members, and a good friendship network - but they tend to be people of my age and, being myself to some extent a support for elderly parents, I don’t want to be a burden to my friends (although I would happily help them, so I realise I’m being a bit illogical!) particularly as they will be old too.
Financially I should, barring extreme circumstances, be able to fund myself either with home services or a care home. It’s more the deciding when these are needed that I worry about - if people start to suffer from dementia they become completely illogical about what care they need.
And a word of caution to couples making POAs for each other - if you have adult children with whom you have a good relationship it is so much more sensible to name them as attorneys either in addition to or instead of your spouse. I’ve seen a number of cases where this can lead to problems as by the time it gets to the point where they have to be activated, the spouse is also not up to dealing with complicated financial arrangements.

re POA
for the childfree, again, younger friends are key here! just had a neighbour in 90s lose capacity, she has friends in their 70s named as POA.

I would do it for friends too. my dad did it as well.

tbh i've never worried about age in the context of being childfree. i've been looked after by friends after an accident too. Family doesn't mean blood links after all.

@riponblues
Really interesting post.
I don't have children of my own but my DP does, not really expecting much of them but hoping, if I'm around and their Dad isn't, they will do what they can.
I lost a parent suddenly, currently providing a low level of care to the remaining 80+ parent. No question that I would do whatever I can, although we have discussed that personal care is a no no 😉
You can't really plan for this stuff, but I hope that my nearest and dearest will help me to have a good end.

I expect my children to look after me in my old age in the same way I expect to look after DM and MIL as they become too frail to look after themselves. But let's be clear about what I and many others mean by that. I have seen my Mum provide nursing care for a GP and I have no intention of going down that route (neither DM or MIL expect it), but I will advocate for DM and particularly MIL (DH is the child that lives closest to MIL whereas DSis lives near DM) and as we are already doing help find e.g. gardeners/cleaners/carers to help her live in her own home, or find a good home for her to live in if she needs it (and most old people don't). DH and I have spoken about her coming to live with us (she's quite independent at the moment so wouldn't want to), but that doesn't mean we'd give up our lives to provide nursing care. I do think if you do a good job as a parent your children will look out for you when you are mentally too frail to do it yourself. Old age catches up with you in unexpected ways even with the best planning. I've had great aunts and uncles who were childless and my parents and their siblings looked out for them as well, it's what happens in a caring family, I have childfree siblings and the DC will be told to watch out for them in old age as well, why wouldn't they?

My child free friend is planning to move to a co-living community.

I too know people without children or who are single who have either a niece/nephew who has done POA for them, or people count on good friends in their 70s when they've been in their 90s or if they have had earlier starting dementia in their 60s or 70s. They have all been people with a range of friendships - during their lives they have helped others at various points and are willing to accept help when they need it.

The worry is that lots of people are very isolated these days. That can include people who do have families but have become isolated from them or people on their own. I think this partly explains some of the posts where people have made provision to end their lives or who say they don't want anything from their families. For some people, the idea of receiving any level of involvement or care without it being a paid for service, just sits so uncomfortably, because they don't have any kind of relationships where such involvement would be possible or even imaginable. Lots of people cannot imagine there being anyone who might be remotely interested in choosing to be involved at some level.

It makes me say again (and I might be like a broken record) that fostering our family relationships and indeed our friendships is so important. It's important for now but also allows us to approach old age with more hope.....not an expectation that someone will provide us with 24/7 personal care, but that people will be with us and interested in what is going on and having our backs, and travelling with us, even if it's from a geographical distance. How much better to approach old age knowing some people at least have the intention to be alongside you through their own choice. Yes, you can pay for some of that and having cash helps people with and without family/friends without a doubt, and I know if you have dementia you don't know much about it anyway. But at the point where you are sinking into it, knowing there are some people out there, who maybe aren't going to be the bum wipers, but who are going to make sure the home you go into is decent and will find you another one if it closes down, must be such a comfort. I really feel all people should be able to have people in their lives who will take an interest regardless of whether they are blood relatives or not. And I'm saddened when it's clear that lots of people don't. And it makes me think again that I must nurture my friendships and family because I enjoy them today, and who knows which if us will need some help in future?

"I think this partly explains some of the posts where people have made provision to end their lives"

my guess is it's mostly that we don't want to go through what we've seen others go through. again, a lot of it is on the EP board. my poor father was grateful to me for feeding him, but what's the value in living like that? luckily the poor soul didn't have too much of that time.

I've got a Dignitas fund. Not even joking. No kids, don't want them.

I do have kids @BobbinThreadbare123 but I think that's a good idea, although wish the UK had its own provision rather than having to go away.

Op, I have DCs but don't expect them to look after me at all. I hope they'll keep in contact and check in regularly but I had plenty of opportunities to live and work abroad and will be encouraging them to do the same, so actually expect they'll live in a different country to me (as I do to my DPs, so can't expect anything else really!).

From mine and DHs perspective, we save as much as possible into our pensions and have various insurance policies. We also live in a big house currently, so when we're older (early 40s right now) we'll look to downsize to something smaller with a strong community and where we can walk to shops & other amenities. I have a very strong friendship group (we've been friends since uni) so hoping that will continue but as we're all the same age, not sure what help we'll be to each other, other than company.

It all depends on our health, but we're very active right now and will continue to be so for as long as possible. No real plan for failing heath, but think the suggestions of advance directives are good as really don't want to be languishing in care homes or suffering for years with no real quality of life.