To be fed up of hearing ‘he’s not a real man?’

[Whatisthisfuckery]

Every day I read threads on here where posters describe nasty, manipulative, violent abusive partners/brothers/fathers/random strangers as not real men/monsters/animals.

They are not not real men, or animals or monsters, they are real men, men in just the same way as all the nice, decent men in our lives are men. That Man who cheats on his girlfriend and abandons their child is a real man; that man who beat up his wife is not an animal, he’s a real man; that man who looks at child abuse images online and probably worse is not a monster he’s a real man. They’re all real men, because they are all somebody’s husband or brother, and they’re all some mother’s son. Men are adult human males, the nice ones, the arseholes and the down right evil ones.

This not all man narrative helps nobody. Not only does it give ‘real men’ an excuse to dismiss their irresponsible, abusive and violent brethren as not being in any way like them so not their collective responsibility, ‘if he behaves like that he’s not a real man, so not like me because I’m a real man,’ but it’s deeply sexist. Who decides what a real man/real woman is? And if any one of us for any reason fall outside those parameters then are we not real men/women?

Society needs to stop labelling these undesirables as other, not real men, because while decent men can put them outside of the ‘real man’ box they can ignore their behaviour. Women have been screaming at men for years to do something about their violence, their controlling and abusive ways and they’ve completely ignored us, so when women collude in this ridiculous enabling ‘real man’ narrative it only reinforces the idea that decent men shouldn’t take responsibility for their own sex and their bad behaviour.

Well said! I quite agree with you.

Yep! Agreed!

I'm in total agreement. In fact I was saying this the other day to OH.

Women have been screaming at men for years to do something about their violence, their controlling and abusive ways and they’ve completely ignored us

The responsibility for a mans behaviour begins and ends with that man. The alternative would be to replace shame by violence.

No, the alternative is to get members of the same group, the same sex class as themselves to step up and tell them their behaviour is unacceptable. The same way that individuals are expected to self-regulate, groups are expected to self-regulate as well. If you’re in a group walking home lat at night and one of the group start shouting, you’ll shush that member of the group, not just go, ‘oh well it’s their responsibility, nowt to do with me.’

While men can other these bad men they can pretend they don’t belong to the same group, not real men, animals, monsters, so they can hand wave their behaviour away as nothing to do with them and not their collective responsibility.

Society as a whole is made up of two groups of people, men and women. Why shouldn’t men as a group help to self-regulate within that group? Women police each other’s behaviour all the time, largely at the behest of men, so why shouldn’t men be expected to return the favour?

I think it's very hypocritical to insinuate someone doesn't live up to their gender. If they've done something awful, then they're a shitty human. Not sure how words like "not a real man" and "emasculating" are still used today. Somehow we've banned these sort of phrases about women but not men.

The pressure on men is also immense in different ways to women. To be financially independent, provide for a whole family, be physically and mentally strong...not surprising that most suicides are from men. Using phrases like "not a real man" contributes to this.

No, the alternative is to get members of the same group, the same sex class as themselves to step up and tell them their behaviour is unacceptable.

Your post is ridiculous.

It is putting a community together where none exists. People can only tell you to behave if they have any day-to-day interaction with you.

So there is no community of men just like there is no black community or islamic community.

These violent, nasty, men are also, like you, human. What are you doing to curb this behaviour prevalent in your species?

You do realise that you probably have more in common with a man from a similar background (ethnic, religious, geographic, social class) than you do with a random woman,?

Your gender is not even close to being the most formative and important thing about you.

To give you an example - how often is the abortion debate in the US framed as "men trying to regulate women's bodies". Not even close to being true - gender is entirely uncorrelated with view on abortion. Religious status or political affiliation, on the other hand, is highly correlated.

Gender is not a meaningful political grouping. Never has been.

I have taken to calling out NAMALT every single time it's trotted out. It's minimizung and dismissive.

And I agree - all the nice men out there - do they call out shit behaviours by their fellow men every time they witness it? Of course not.

Dissimilitude no one is talking about gender.

I wrote my dissertation on how people like to other the monstrous amongst us as it is more comfortable to view them as aberrations rather than being similar to ourselves. I think that is what also happens here. It is easy to label these men as others rather than confront what could be causing people to act this way e.g societal pressures, cycle of abuse, limited resources for things like counselling.

This is essentially another branch of toxic masculinity. And I hasten to add the onus is not on women to sort it out. Men as a class need to redress this. Because by and large it's always somehow a woman's fault that she was killed, raped, cheated on, divorced... died through a sex game gone wrong! I despair!

@CassianAndor

I'm deeply uninterested in whatever pedantic definitions arch-hair splitters have settled on for these things, I'm sure my meaning is clear.

And I agree - all the nice men out there - do they call out shit behaviours by their fellow men every time they witness it? Of course not.

Speak for the men you know Cassian. You don't speak me for me. And yes, I bloody do call out shit behaviour.

I find it baffling when a group of women jump on the defensive when it’s suggested that men should take collective responsibility for the behaviour of their own sex class, especially given it would benefit every single one of us.

Why would it be such a bad thing if blokes were expected to condemn their male peers for behaving inappropriately, rather than laughing it off as bants, or John being a jack the lad, or Bob down the road who makes comments to girls and makes them feel uncomfortable being just a creepy weirdo? And why does mens’ response to these other men have to be violence or nothing? If you saw a child throwing stones at a window or a woman letting her dog shit on the pavement without picking it up you’d say something wouldn’t you? So why do we not as a society expect men to say ‘oi, John, leave her alone, she’s said no,’ or ‘oi Bob, what the hell do you think you’re doing speaking to a child like that?’ Is it really too much to ask? Are men so weak willed and pathetic that we shouldn’t expect the same amount of community spirit and accountability from them that we expect of women and children?

I have been chastised by random men for everything from not smiling, to taking too long at the cash machine to standing in the wrong place on a crowded bus. Why in that case can they chastise women for petty little selfish things, but not call out the shitty and inappropriate behaviour of other men?

It seems to me that men can chastise women and children till the cows come home, but when it comes to calling out the behaviour of other men they’d rather just walk on by and do nothing. And if it’s that they fear a smack in the face, then how the hell do they expect women and children to pick up that slack if they’re too afraid to challenge their physical equals? If it was the case that men called out other men the way they called out others as routine then the threat of a smack would be significantly less, because there would be other men waiting to hold him accountable. The threat just wouldn’t exist in the same way, because men as a group just wouldn’t stand for that kind of behaviour. Why is this too much to ask? And why are women queuing up to permit men to get away with not taking responsibility?

A man is not decent if he stand by and does nothing when another man is behaving inappropriately or threatening somebody weaker than himself, he is part of the problem. They are all real men, so as a group in society they should step up and carry some of the burden of ensuring that their group behaves themselves.

Honestly, someone suggest that people, men, should step up and help make society better by helping to police their own and some people go apoplectic. It’s no wonder this country is falling apart.

Do you call them out?
Why should my husband take a punch in the face in order to correct someone who is nothing to do with him? Are you willing to take that risk?
To be honest, you come across as ridiculously bigoted and quite frankly stupid.

People use 'he's not a real man' to counteract the notion that violence is 'manly'. You may not agree with the statement but it is generally said with the best of intentions.

I don't police other women's behaviour just because I'm female.

Sometimes I think feminism has disappeared up its own arse.

Absolutely. ‘NAMALT’ is a way of saying these aren’t male behaviours. Any man could do any of the wrong things, at any time. Like women.

We might have to ‘police each other’. It used to be done through shame and shaming but we’ve moved on. Education, media messages, shunning transgressors, might work.

It’s not baffling that women aren’t more pro-active. As ever, we rely on men, want their support and so on.

Bigoted? Stupid? Do explain how.

"police their own"

Much that is wrong with this view is encapsulated in this small phrase. The view of men as a homogeneous group, the idea that this arbitrary grouping is collectively responsible for itself (and it's as arbitrary as people under 30 need to police the behavior of all under 30 year olds), the casual way you expect innocent bystanders to insert themselves into a conflict on your behalf because you think their genitalia confers this duty on them.

Why shouldn’t men as a group take responsibility for men as a group. If I went out to the pub with a group of mates we’d all be watching out for each other, pulling back into line anyone who played up. By this logic we should all walk by if we saw something bad happening. If your child was getting beat up in the street, would you be fine if 10 other kids of a similar size just walked past and ignored it? If your H was getting beat up and 10 blokes walked by and ignored it? If your DD was getting roughed up by her boyfriend and 10 men walked past and ignored it?

I find it baffling when a group of women jump on the defensive when it’s suggested that men should take collective responsibility for the behaviour of their own sex class, especially given it would benefit every single one of us.

An abusive woman - is she the responsibility of all women, everywhere?

It might help, OP, if you clarify whether you think a) an abusive man is the responsibility of all men or just b) a man kicking off in the Dog and Duck is the responsibility of all the men who happen to be in the Dog and Duck at the time, for them to intervene and stop him kicking off. Even if only b), as a PP says "Why should my husband take a punch in the face in order to correct someone who is nothing to do with him?"

And do you think if a woman kicks off in a pub it's the responsibility of all the women in the pub to intervene?

@Whatisthisfuckery

You totally conflate two very different things.

People clearly have a responsibility to intervene or act to prevent (via calling the police) a crime.

On the other hand, people have absolutely no responsibility to police the non-criminal behavior of others, particularly on the basis of collective belonging to some arbitrary grouping.

My mother does it. Does my head in. Bill Cosby - he must have been on drugs. no, mother - he gave women drugs.