To think lots of people are dumb over smart meters

[InkedGreen]

Fab little devices, we have ours on the kitchen table and is a great reminder to use less or to turn off stuff when we're not in the room. Showers make it go crazy and we've really cut down the shower lengths if not washing our hair

I see I am not the only person to notice that @InkedGreen hasn't come back to their thread, after the first goady post.

@BeepBeeep ohh we were so clever 😂
Well, at least until we had a fancier phone installed that could be unplugged and hidden. That buggered my plan.

I don't think Mum ever knew how I'd hacked the phone, must have confused the life out of her.

We have one but I have never looked at it. It's just face down in the kitchen somewhere. We use the electricity we need, turn lights etc off when not in use so I am not sure what the point of it is.

I've got toddlers I can't always come back to MN all the time!

I agree with the poster that says it's a good idea to show when demand on the grid is low so they know then to put on the washing machine etc.

How is it beneficial to use electricity when demand is low on the grid?

Is that a genuine question?

How is it beneficial to use electricity when demand is low on the grid?

When demand is high the grid is importing more nuclear power from France and/or buying more from high-polluting occasional generators in the UK that charge a higher unit price. You can't maintain generation capacity at the peak level all day every day: it's very inefficient and expensive. So you maintain sufficient capacity to meet a certain level of demand all the time and then have contracts to buy additional electricity at times of higher demand. The more you can shift that demand away from peak periods and towards usually low-demand periods, the cheaper and more efficient the system is.

Read the "Keeping the Lights On" column in Private Eye. It's very illuminating (pun intended).

How is it beneficial to use electricity when demand is low on the grid?

Power stations have to keep generating a certain level of electricity constantly - ideally, as much as could possibly be consumed at any one time and a little more. They can't just notch it up or down a bit dynamically, it's a much less sophisticated process than that. If it isn't used, it just goes to waste.

I completely get the idea of monitoring grid usage patterns and controlling supply so that there's enough but not an excess, but I fail to see why this would need to be done at an individual household level if not for the purposes of being able to override the wishes of the householders and physically cut them off; or to berate them for 'unacceptable usage' and maybe impose punitive measures or 'educate' them.

If you run a shop and know how many of each item you tend to sell each day and when peak/dead times and periods are, that's all you need to know to be able to control your own supplies - it makes no difference to you WHO is actually buying them all.

it's a good idea to show when demand on the grid is low so they know then to put on the washing machine etc.

So I'm meant to plug in a device that uses energy that will then tell me when lots of people are not using energy so I can finally put a load of washing on? Or like everyone else in the country I'll put the washing machine on when I have time to do so and its convenient to me not to the grid.

x-posted with SirToby (but I like to think that we both contributed slightly different angles on it!)

Smile it uses virtually no electricity.

You sound selfish, it's helpful to know when demand is low to put things on. Things are better if we work as a considerate society.

I wasn't trying to be rude earlier, I just wasn't sure if someone was joking about why load levels were important.

I was staggered once I had a smart meter to learn they are not portable. So as soon as we switched suppliers (which we are encouraged to do to get best pricing) we lost the functionality. So the real dumbness of smart meters is that.

I completely get the idea of monitoring grid usage patterns and controlling supply so that there's enough but not an excess, but I fail to see why this would need to be done at an individual household level if not for the purposes of being able to override the wishes of the householders and physically cut them off; or to berate them for 'unacceptable usage' and maybe impose punitive measures or 'educate' them.

It won't be done on an individual basis. The variable charging will be applied by a supplier to all its domestic customers to persuade them to move their consumption to 'quiet' periods - like the middle of the night.

You sound selfish, it's helpful to know when demand is low to put things on. Things are better if we work as a considerate society.

Its not selfish the reason there are peak energy times are because lots of people are out the house during the same hours each day and therefore cannot wait for non peak times to do household chores like the washing. Today I'm at home so I can do laundry when ever I like but for most people that's not possible because they are at work right now. They will likely do their laundry when convenient later at peak time when the grid is busy because lots of other people are also doing their laundry. Its not selfish to use electricity when its convenient for yourself to do so.

So I'm meant to plug in a device that uses energy that will then tell me when lots of people are not using energy so I can finally put a load of washing on? Or like everyone else in the country I'll put the washing machine on when I have time to do so and its convenient to me not to the grid.

More likely you'll put the washing machine on when it suits you and, if demand is too high, you'll just get your power turned off remotely. As systems get more sophisticated, you might have another screen in your home giving you an appointment when the appropriate electric frequency for your WM will be remotely turned on and this will be your allocated time to use it, if you need to.

You might also get messages demanding to know why you've been using it more than 'would be expected' for a family of your size and 'inviting' you in to a 'personal review of your circumstances, to see how we can best help you meet your social responsibilities and only use what you actually need'. That's pretty much what they currently do with PIP/DLA, home care packages and UC.

"If you do not keep the appointment we assign you for your Household Energy Requirement Consultation, we will assume that you have made other more sustainable arrangements and will therefore permanently disable the supply to your now redundant washing machine for reasons of health and safety."

I don't think it makes me 'dumb' that I am perfectly able to work out if my electricity bills are higher than I'd like them to be from what I'm paying each month. I can tell that from my bank statements, I don't need a smart meter to tell me that.

I'm in the fortunate position of not having to worry about what I spend on electricity and gas and I'm certainly not going to sit in a freezing cold house in an effort to save a few pounds.

If you can't work out that it would save you money if you cut down on the amount of time you spend in the shower, or that not leaving things on when you're not using them, or that running the washing machine when it's not full is wasteful and various other things of that nature without needing a little meter to tell you, then I don't think you're in any position to call anyone else 'dumb'.

I understand the benefits of managing demand and lowering the peak load and even the use of surge or discounted pricing to 'encourage' it but what are the electricity companies doing to encourage businesses to manage their energy usage?

You only have to look at shops and offices at night to see that a lot of them are fully lit 24/7 even when unoccupied. All sorts of businesses light their buildings when not needed.

Shops and supermarkets are freezing cold because the air conditioning is on far too high (read low temperature) a setting. In winter many shops keep their doors open and their heating on so the heat just goes out the door and when customers go in with outdoor clothing on they are uncomfortably hot.

My own work office has a heating system that cannot be switched off and the only way I can reduce the temperature is to open the windows.

But no, the solution is apparently to bully householders into having a gadget that won't work when they switch suppliers and will overcharge them unless they inconvenience themselves into cooking or washing at unusual times.

We have had an energy monitor for years and years, it tells us the energy we are using without giving control of our energy to the suppliers (or hackers). We change energy supplier every couple of years so it is pointless getting a Gen1 meter, we were thinking of gettign one when Gen2 were offered but I was reading a BBC article the other day talking about the problems with Gen2 meters so I think we will keep waiting.

I’m so dumb I never even look at mine

It won't be done on an individual basis. The variable charging will be applied by a supplier to all its domestic customers to persuade them to move their consumption to 'quiet' periods - like the middle of the night.

But how could this not be much more simply done on their websites or by sending consumers automated emails or texts every morning, advising of the cheaper and more expensive times? I'm guessing that the peak and low usage times wouldn't actually vary that much from day to day, anyway. It still doesn't change the fact that power is generated for and supplied to millions of households - there isn't a power station and an energy supplier for every single home.

I could accept if adaptations were made to existing meters to show the time of usage as well as the volume, but the moment things tip over from encouraging people to forcing them - and gaining the ability to cut off people's supplies if you want to for any reason you like, that's when I start to object.

but what are the electricity companies doing to encourage businesses to manage their energy usage?

Its the same with plastic isn't it. Target individual households and make the general population feel guilty even though we are just a tiny part of the problem and ignore the businesses.

We had ours fitted, changed providers and it now doesn't work. The new provider made an appointment to come out twice and didn't ever appear so we don't have a working smart meter.

If they're going to operate surge pricing, what is going to be done to protect vulnerable people who already can't afford to put the heating on in winter?

If they can't afford the current prices, they're going to be able to afford it even less when the price doubles, because it's cold and everyone's got the heating on and using the lights more because it's dark 16 hours a day and barely gets light properly even in the daytime.

You only have to look at shops and offices at night to see that a lot of them are fully lit 24/7 even when unoccupied. All sorts of businesses light their buildings when not needed.

Yes, precisely. Slightly off-topic, but supermarkets have made a big fanfare of cutting down plastic use for environmental and sustainability reasons and 'encouraging' their customers to do the same - but they still wrap much of their produce - including bananas of all things - in pointless plastic. You'd think they'd been told there was an unstoppable permanent surfeit in plastic overproduction that required them to find excuses to use up as much as they possibly could.

My DH has refused to have a smart meter from the very start. We've both told the electricity company we don't want one when they phone us, but we still get cards thorugh the door telling us they're 'in the area'. They won't take no for an answer.

I've only read the first & last pages, so don't know if anyone's said this, but he's mentioned misuse of data, e.g. if someone somewhere can see that your consumption has dropped drastically for say 5 days in a row, they'll know the house is empty...