To think lots of people are dumb over smart meters

[InkedGreen]

Fab little devices, we have ours on the kitchen table and is a great reminder to use less or to turn off stuff when we're not in the room. Showers make it go crazy and we've really cut down the shower lengths if not washing our hair

Yes, why do bananas come in plastic bags. They're not grapes or cucumbers which are known to go off faster if they're not wrapped up. They come in a perfectly robust packaging of their own.

If we were actually serious about reducing resources usage, bananas wouldn't come in bags, and in fact it would be illegal to sell plastic wrapped bananas.

I looked into the possible advantages & disadvantages of smart meters, which led me to the decision I don’t need one.
I guess I must be “dumb” as you so eloquently put it??

Not a very well considered post at all really OP.

If they're going to operate surge pricing, what is going to be done to protect vulnerable people who already can't afford to put the heating on in winter?

Elderly, disabled and vulnerable people will just have to learn to grow younger and/or less disabled or vulnerable, I suppose. Similarly, people who work a standard 9-5 job will need to start commuting to and from it at 11:45am....

Apart from that, recent history teaches us that 'variable' pricing means 'increased prices. Household appliances are massively more efficient than their equivalents were even 20 years ago, but bills just keep going up and up.

Cars are hugely more efficient now, but your bill at the petrol/diesel pump has continued to rise. Ah yes, we're now being switched over to electric cars.... the government has stated that smart motorways 'could' (nudge, nudge) be used to charge people per mile travelled, to replace lost revenues in vehicle and fuel tax.

Things are better if we work as a considerate society.

Hilarious. And as a considerate society, other people who make different decisions to you are “dumb” ?

I’ve already said I can’t make head nor tail of my smart meter display, so can someone tell me if it gives an indication of grid demand level? Where does that information come from?

When I asked the question about the benefits of using energy at low load times I did mean benefits to me (call me selfish, I don’t really care, I’m dumb anyway). As far as I know we don’t have time-of-use tarriifs (except the traditional off peak meters) as yet so using peak time energy has no financial penalty. This will be of vital importance when electric cars become more commonplace since they will place a considerable load on the grid if adding to peak time loads.

At the moment peak consumption exists not because people are selfish but because they have lifestyles that control when they use electricity. I can’t do my washing and have a shower at 3am when demand is lowest because I need to sleep so I can go to work and get money to pay for electricity (and washing machines can’t be run overnight because of their fire hazard. I can’t run my heating in summer when gas demand is low because that isn't when it’s cold.

Electric cars actually present an opportunity to balance peak demand, but will involve an overall increase in demand for electricity (but a decrease in carbon emissions overall). The answer to managing demand is likely to come from battery technology or possibly by using hydrogen as an energy store/fuel.

Finally millions of “hardly any electricity” used by smart meters is significant if added up and when the energy used in making the devices, transporting and installing them is taken into account.

And if we're already short of electricity, that we need the smart meters to manage usage, how are we going to cope if we all do as we're told and switch to electric cars. Where's all the extra electricity going to come from to power those?

Nearly all the coal fired power stations have closed down. It takes decades to get a nuclear power station going. We tinker with solar and wind power but the capacity isn't great and that still takes time to build, get through planning etc, they keep mentioning tidal power, but people moan about that too.

Good point about appliances being more efficient - I wonder if usage has gone down at all?

Finally millions of “hardly any electricity” used by smart meters is significant if added up and when the energy used in making the devices, transporting and installing them is taken into account.

It really is insignificant. In fact smart meters use less than the old ones with a spinning disk.

My DH has refused to have a smart meter from the very start. We've both told the electricity company we don't want one when they phone us, but we still get cards thorugh the door telling us they're 'in the area'. They won't take no for an answer.

One of the campaigning websites offers you the facility to send a blanket email to every single energy supplier informing them that your household is permanently and absolutely exercising your legal right to refuse any smart meters on your premises until/unless you notify them otherwise.

I think you can also get (or could just make) signs to put on or next to your meters themselves to reiterate your withdrawal of any presumed consent to replace them with smart meters.

I don't know exactly which law it would come under, but I believe you could prosecute anybody who, with evidence of their being in full possession of your stated refusal to consent, nevertheless tried to go ahead and force you to do so anyway (or even just did it without your knowledge).

Unless you demonstrate to them that you know and are exercising your rights, they'll continue to do whatever they can to try to make you believe that it's compulsory, whilst just stopping short of actually stating that unequivocally in writing.

We had a chap come the other day telling us that our windows were old (true) and not the most energy efficient available (true), but he then went on to tell me that the government is making windows of our now-inferior energy efficiency illegal by the end of the year (or was it 2020?). I'm sure he's correct and that they're no longer allowed to be sold for new installation, but the way he was talking, you'd have thought that, if we didn't agree to buy replacement ones from him, the government were going to send somebody around with a hammer and chisel to remove our 'illegal' windows!! I know they're not the latest and most efficient possible at keeping the heat in, but they have to be more efficient than a big square hole in the wall

Going to have to ask for the data demonstrating that the smart meter and it’s separate display consume less electricity than the old meter. What about the energy involved in manufacturing a new meter to replace one which was working? How long does it take to pay that back on the savings?

at 'illegal windows' but sadly, it's tactics like that which trick people into paying for work they don't need, can't afford or isn't fairly priced.

I'm fairly certain our windows must also be illegal, as they were old when we moved in nearly 14 years ago and are probably some early generation uPVC ones. If someone came round and told me they were illegal, I'd be wanting to know about all the grants that might be available to help me pay for new ones otherwise I'll get round to having new windows in my own time thank you very much.

I’ve already said I can’t make head nor tail of my smart meter display

Even if you can, it's nonsensical. If it tells you how much energy you're using right now, how does that help you budget when you pay for your energy monthly or quarterly and not by the minute? A toaster, kettle or shower would cost you tens of thousands a year if you used them 24/7, but you don't - they sit idle and consuming no energy at all for the vast majority of the day and, over the course of a month they, with all of the other appliances, average out to a reasonable monthly cost (inasmuch as any available tariffs are reasonable).

The amount of money that many people spend on a big two-week holiday each year, whilst earning nothing at the same time, is very significant and would be completely unsustainable if that was your average fortnightly income/outgoings for the year.... but it's not, as for 46-48 weeks of the year, you're at work, earning, and accruing annual leave which can be 'spent' on that very purpose.

By the way, apologies if I misunderstood your earlier comment/question about using electricity at low-demand times and inadvertently told you what you already knew very well!

The smart meter itself apparently consumes about a watt, the old style electromechanical ones consume about 2 watts. My meter, however, has a separate plug in device which displays instant consumption information and other stuff. That must consume some electricity so I think the overall consumption can’t be less than the old meter, which was working perfectly and has been replaced.

Got rid of mine as didnt need it and interfered with my wifi which was sooo infuriating

I am still waiting for my smart meter, but that is because we are waiting for the new type to be installed. That I think will be great, because it means we can have a variable tariff - rather than one rate, we can have cheaper electricity at night (like the old economy 7) but without needing a separate meter for that as it will know how much is used at what times.

If they're going to operate surge pricing, what is going to be done to protect vulnerable people...

You have to understand that the energy companies are not interested in social benefit. They exist to make profits for shareholders, many of whom are abroad.
Poorer people tend to use less energy anyway, so energy companies would be glad to be rid of them.

"cheaper electricity at night"

That might not be the case.

If we have a lot of electric cars, they might be gobbling all night. Solar panels will be dark. If demand equals or exceeds supply, there is no reason for prices to drop.

At times when there is plenty of wind, we'll get quite a lot of wind power, which will sell into any market for whatever price it can get. Wind installations are constantly getting cheaper.

However, if our nuclear plant ever gets finished, we have foolishly committed to pay way over the market price, with a price escalator to help the French and Chinese owners get rich at our expense. So nuclear power will not be cheap at night or at any other time.

This link is interesting.

At the time of writing, national demand is about 27.7GW. That's a night-time low, it doesn't go much lower.

On a windy day, windpower can give between 5GW and 10GW. But at the moment it is only giving 1.1GW, and has been low for a couple of days.

Our remaining nukes are giving 6.8GW (near their max); coal and solar nothing; hydro almost nothing.

More than half our electricity is coming from large gas generation, giving 15.5GW

We are importing a bit, mostly from French nukes.

Our peak winter daytime use is about 40GW

All being well, we can meet that if we fire up some old coal stations, and some small, inefficient gas generators that are kept as backup.

If the event of a gas shortage, we're stuffed. The government thinks it more economical not to pay for a reserve store of gas, and there is no private operator willing to pay for it.

I don't want cheaper electricity at night anyhow - encourages people to do their washing, tumble drying etc whilst people are sleeping. Not a great idea.

Thank you @PigletJohn

I think the vast majority of the population of the UK have no idea how precarious our electricity supply is.

I don't want cheaper electricity at night anyhow - encourages people to do their washing, tumble drying etc whilst people are sleeping. Not a great idea.

I usually run my washing machine overnight so I can hang stuff out to dry in the morning. As long as your washing machine isn't in a room immediately next-door to a neighbour's bedroom, I don't see the problem.

As long as your washing machine isn't in a room immediately next-door to a neighbour's bedroom, I don't see the problem

The problem is the risk of fire.

The UK fire service is unequivocal on this "Do not operate washing machines and tumble driers unattended or at night"

"Friday's announcement offers a guaranteed price to firms willing to take the risk of installing costly offshore wind turbines in projects set to be delivered by 2025.

The cheapest operator will provide power for as low as £40 per megawatt hour.

By comparison, power from Hinkley Point C - the new nuclear power station in Somerset also due to open in 2025 - is expected to cost £92.50 per megawatt hour."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49769259

How much is the OP paid to write this advert for Smart Meters?

I love my smart meter. It was free, took about 10 minutes for installation and since it arrived about 18 months ago, Eon have dropped my direct debit from £78pm to £49 so its win win in my opinion. And all the people saying they’ve lived without one for years and are capable of keeping track of usage themselves etc is fair enough and I thought the same but when you can literally see the numbers move live as you put the washer on, you can’t help but become more aware of household usage. I think they’re great!

I refuse one. I've heard there is nothing but problems with them.

I'm so dumb I turned off the monitor thingy because it was using electricity, and then wondered why the app wasn't showing how much energy I'm using.