The Lib Dem position on Brexit is not “anti-democratic”

[whatshallIdo1]

Ever since they announced their revoke Article 50 policy, I am seeing comments about their lack of respect for “democracy” everywhere. Even serious journalists are questioning them along these lines.

How is it anti-democratic to set out your manifesto in advance of an election? They can’t force people to vote for them.

I think it looks as though they know how people voted in the first referendum, but that’s not the result they wanted, so they are going to revoke it.

Cut it any way you like, though. But lost people who voted remember being told that this was ‘their chance’, ‘once in a generation’ etc. Even Paddy Ashdown said that the vote had to be respected.

I am sure you have lots to say about people changing their minds, OP. But this is just to show you where ‘even serious journalists’ may be coming from.

It is as anti-democratic as anything is in a FPTP system.

52% voted Leave
48% voted Remain.
In 2017, 80% of people voted for a party that wanted to respect the referendum.
But 54% of people voted for parties that did not want No Deal - and that is probably 95% if you look at the Conservative manifesto at the time.

A party with 40% of the votes was able to get a working majority in the Houses of Parliament. Yet most people did not want what they want.

If a party with less than 50% of the vote gets a working majority and does what 52% did not want to happen, what does that mean?

but that’s not the result they wanted, so they are going to revoke it.

They can’t revoke it without being voted into government (which we know they won’t be, but for argument’s sake). If the majority of people voted for them, it would mean that the majority of people were now in favour of revoking.

People might not like their manifesto, but it isn’t anti-democratic.

If the majority of people voted for them, it would mean that the majority of people were now in favour of revoking

What if less than 50% vote for them but they still win and then revoke?

Yes I agree that there are issues with FPTP, but many people seem to be angry that they have set out their stall in the way they have.

Yet I don’t see the same outrage about Farage now actively campaigning for no deal.

Their manifesto is anti democratic in several places, including women's rights.

48% of people didn't vote for brexit and of the 52%, I suspect that many people hoped that the government actually knew what they were doing.

I used to be in love with my ex, but time and experience changed that.

Similarly, if the will of the people was a one time only thing, not subject to change, there would be no elections, ever, for any reason other than an incumbent MP/PM/Councillor dying or otherwise moving on.

It's perfectly democratic. Clearly if they get a majority with that manifesto then that's what the majority have endorsed and voted for.

I would just pipe in that I think it's ridiculous taht people with permanent resident status (5 years + working in UK) had no say🤷 But some other non UK nationals did.

It's not undemocratic if certain percentage voted basing it on lies...

If they are elected on this manifesto promise, I don't see how it can be undemocratic. At least they are being honest. The no deal option will be a disaster. Labour saying they will negotiate a better deal, probably by staying in the sm and cu which is worse than what we have now. Why bother, especially if they are then going to campaign against their own deal.

Yet I don’t see the same outrage about Farage now actively campaigning for no deal

Same thing - if the Brexit party say they want us to leave with No Deal, that's also undemocratic - for the same reason.

TBH - it's also the same for the Conservatives at the moment.

And there is real outrage at that.

Surely democracy means freedom to choose, and yes freedom to change your mind. The LD are being very clear on what they will offer the country, I can't see how having a GE will be undemocratic. At least they know what they are offering.

Totally agree with you op.

Back in the early 2000s the Lib Dems were agitating for an in/out referendum on the EU. I think they were the first mainstream party to do so. It was in their 2010 manifesto. In/out is a binary question - they didn't mention degrees of membership, or deals. Now they have had their referendum but won't accept the response.

Another problem is that they now have MPs who were voted into parliament as members of another party. Not every one is happy to have a LibDem MP when their constituency voted in a Member who stood for, say Labour or Conservative. I should think that feels extremely undemocratic.

If the majority of people voted for them, it would mean that the majority of people were now in favour of revoking.

What if everyone votes for them because they have such a charismatic leader, incredibly effective candidates and such well worked out, practical policies on everything else (unlikely, I know)- but the majority still support leave?

Leaving the EU was decided by a single issue referendum. A general election is not the same process. People are voting for individuals to represent them over 5 years based on 100s of policy commitments.

Of course it is anti-democratic.

I voted remain. I was a Lib Dem for years. Childish shit like this is why I can't vote for them.

Saying it should be binding doesn’t make it so.

Rather than being anti-democratic, doesn’t the fact that they have this one contentious commitment (and IMO it would have been safer for them to stick to their let’s have a referendum line, though another one of those might be even more divisive and unpleasant than the last one) just mean that they are going to lose potential voters. So they are taking that risk. Yes and it might leave some people with no one to vote for - though there are probably already many people who felt like that, change in policies or not.

Genuinely - is revoke a childish policy? Aren’t they just pragmatically saying we already have the best deal we are going to get?

@Gilead it’s enough to weep over, the way Cameron and co politically promised what they did, without any preparation or thought. And three years later we are in the situation we are in, while Cameron publishes his memoirs .

Genuinely - is revoke a childish policy? Aren’t they just pragmatically saying we already have the best deal we are going to get?

Yes. It pretends there is a simple answer (which would be great, if true). They can only do this because they no there is no chance of getting power.

The pledge to oppose any increase in tuition fees was an error made for similar reasons, but once that pledge was made it should have been kept.

Breaking the pledge that the referendum represents would similarly cause anger and a loss of faith in democracy, to a much greater degree. It would be worse than the prorogation.

Of course it's not anti democratic. They are giving people the opportunity to change their minds. That's the essence of democracy IMO.

On this particular issue, I can’t see a problem with what they’re saying. It’s a clear manifesto promise. If people want to see it fulfilled they’ll vote LibDem, if they don’t they won’t. If a majority vote for them (which is very unlikely) they’ll be the government and get to revoke article 50.
I think Anna Soubry, who I normally like very much, has been very disingenuous over this. She is saying that it gives a mandate to the SNP to override the result of the Scottish referendum if they get into power in Westminster. She knows perfectly well that this is a mathematical impossibly- there aren’t enough Scottish seats to give a party who only fights in Scotland a majority for the whole of the UK. I was very unimpressed that she used such a dishonest argument to score petty points against a party she should be working with.

If they campaign on a single flagship issue- like Farage - I don’t see the problem.

A ballsy move!!

Maybe they pretty much automatically get the 6miliion petition votes for revoking Articlw 50!

I don’t have a problem with it. The Tories and Brexit parties are both leave parties, no one knows what Labour is and it’s perfectly fair to have a remain party. I suspect they know there’s no way they will get a majority and when they don’t, will go back to pushing for the second referendum, but they give remain voters a potential home.

I do wonder, if every single remain voter out there voted for them, what their seats would look like.

They haven’t got a hope in hell of winning an outright majority so can say whatever they like. It’s all bollocks.

It’s not anti democratic. Finally someone who is talking about revoking. It’s the only sensible option left.
Why do people want to thrash their own country just because....it’s democracy? People were sold lies and didn’t understand what they were voting for. The leave side has had 3 years! Time to revoke.

I hope nobody buys Cameron’s bloody book, and it us a massive flop

And even though I voted remain and Lib Dems before, i could not vote for them now (for anti democratic stance AND their stance on trans rights overruling women’s rights)