To just be more confused after reading mn posts

[Teagoanngoanngoann]

So.. while scrolling through MN tonight i read 3 diff posts on AIBU.
First re family who were bringing up child without revealing the childs gender as they want it to be treated neutrally. Read all the posts with pro n cons re bringing child up this way & took in the info.
2nd was about Sam Smith wanting to be called They as he was identifying as non binary. Again read all the posts with opinions and took info in.
3rd post was from a mum whos son didnt get to go on a STEM trip as it was just for girls. Set up for girls to encourage more girls into STEM. No trip had been set up for boys. Again read all opinions
AIBU just to be bloody confused at this point?

I’m confused as to why you think Sam Smith is relevant to a STEM trip.

Well, it’s a confusing subject until you figure out your own stance. Then it stops being confusing and starts being frustrating.

what specifically are you confused about?

The only way I can see any of this could be confusing is if you believe girls have silly little fluffy unicorn brains and boys have very important logical scientist brains.

If you agree that there are 2 biological sexes (apart from intersex people), and whether you like stereotypical 'female' things like nail varnish and kittens doesn't actually dictate what your sex is, then there is hope for you.

@StillCoughingandLaughing because the STEM trip is aimed solely at girls and Sam is identifying as neither male nor female...ergo he is relevant to the post and my confusion.

I’m not sure why this is confusing.

You do realise that it isn’t MN creating these posts, it’s individuals who are both the subjects and the creators of these three threads.

Although they are all loosely based around the same subject, they are separate and distinct posts and the people commenting bring different views to each. How is that confusing?

@popehilarious. So heres my confusion. So we should treat boys and girls the same. I get that. When bringing them up we shouldn't encourage or discourage them from playing with gender typical toys etc. In P School staff are discouraged from saying boys or girls etc. Using neutral terms like pupils etc. It is a persons right to identify as whatever they want.
All this is greeted with positive responses from people. But then when the mum complained about her son not getting the same opportunity as the girls at STEM she was slated. As the general opinion was girls should get more help and encouragement. So my confusion is when is it acceptable to be gender neutral and when is it not??

So you are confused that MN has different people with different views?

There's a reason for some sex-segregation (toilets, sports, etc). There are reasons to discourage sex stereotypes as, generally, they disadvantage women and girls.

I would say if the gender-neutrality is breaking boundaries that sex-segregation is there to defend then that's not acceptable. But I don't think a STEM course for women has anything to do with gender-neutrality.

I don't know which one you're referring to but the Sam Smith post I read last night definitely did not give the impression that gender neutral terms was ok and it definitely did not give the impression that people had the right to identify however they want.

It definitely gave me the impression that a huge number of people are narrow-minded tosspots.

It is a persons right to identify as whatever they want.

I'm not really sure about this, either. What do you mean by this? I can't identify as the Prime Minister, however sure I am that I'd do a better job....

There are more boys studying STEM and ending up in STEM related jobs than girls. Research shows that girls drift away STEM at a relatively young age. Therefore STEM days for girls are to encourage a world where males and females are represented equally in these fields.

Boys and girls should be treated the same but they aren't. Therefore things like STEM trips for girls are intended to help create some balance. I am not sure where Sam Smith fits in with your confusion, can you elaborate?

@popehilarious. This made me laugh i just had a vision of people doing im Spartacus but as Boris 🤣

I’m confused as to what you’re confused about. Different people start different threads about different things on a large parenting website.

For example my opinions are - raising a child without ‘revealing’ its sex is just self indulgent bullshit. Ditto Sam Smith wanting to be referred to as ‘they’. A STEM trip that is just for girls is a good thing as girls are hugely underrepresented in this area and should be encouraged to become and remain interested in it.

@boolooboo if u are trying to run a gender neutral classroom but then offer a trip for girls but have some mini sam smiths in the class identifying as neither he|she or both he\she then the lines start to blur as to whether they can attend the stem trip.

You're describing opinions as though they are absolutes.

The scenarios you describe would only be comparable if equal amounts of girls/boys were involved in STEM, in which case it would be a good point, why treat them differently? However with research showing that it will take c200 years for women to reach parity with men in the workplace, that's why such initiatives exist. There are similar initiatives with other minorities and other fields that don't take into account gender e.g poorer pupils to Oxbridge.

If the stem trip is for girls, then Sam can't go despite calling themself they because Sam is Male, whatever pronouns they use.

Well if I ran the world Sam Smith would be treated as the sex he was born, not as a male/female hybrid. So he'd be with the boys.

The reason for the stem trip is simple, far fewer girls take stem a levels and even fewer have stem careers. DD's degree is only 20% female, it's widely recognised as the best course in that subject in the country, why isn't it 50% female? Because they haven't got the right a levels

There won't be an issue with choosing which people can go on a course to encourage girls into stem. There will be all sorts of categories and pronouns, but the children will still divide neatly into Male and female, bar a tiny percentage (.001?) who are diagnosed as intersex. And they will have decided which category to tag along with.

School pupil Sam Smith might feel he fits in more with the girls but the world around him will have seen him as a boy and treated him accordingly. Which could have included for example, more encouragement to play with technology at home and being bought a chemistry set for Christmas rather than a barbie.

Wait until you see the thread about people keeping crisps in the fridge. Your mind will really be blown then!

Think somewhere along the line Neo offered us all a pill and we took the wrong one! 🤣

Yes that's why biological sex is important.
And no-one can really say what "gender" is, for a start, so yes it kind of means whatever anyone feels like it means.

So it starts off as a shorthand for someone feeling feminine or masculine (according to their personal perception of fem/masc) and ends up being included in legislation to force you to believe that someone who says their gender is female literally is a woman. This is actually happening, now. Read this thread and Times article to see why it's important.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3692358-Girls-must-bow-to-trans-rights-in-new-rules-for-schools

There are a wide number of people on MN, all with different views, life experience and background. There isn’t really one collective, universal opinion on anything - that’s why it’s interesting