That replying to work emails on the train IS working?

[managedmis]

Jury seems to be out on this one at work so thought I'd ask on her.

I commute 2 hours per day to get to work, an hour there and back. I have my work email on my phone and reply /send emails when I'm on the train. Note that my role is admin based, so always loads of emails to respond to etc.

I consider that this is work.

What do you think?

Obviously we will have to agree to disagree but if you go into business class on a long distance train it is full of people heads down with files and laptops. I am sure they consider themselves working.

They maybe working. That doesnt mean that is counted towards their working hours. You cany possibly know that.

"Work" should be something you do, not somewhere you go.

If commuting time is not counted as work time, then get a good book or podcast for the journey and do the emails when you get there.

They maybe working. That doesnt mean that is counted towards their working hours. You cany possibly know that. I know dh definitely does count his commute into his working hours, but he'd be inclined to record less time than the journey typically 30mins for a 60min train journey.

Ok...

So due to confidentiality (which doesn't apply to every bit of work stuff in reality but presuming it did):

Is it 'work' if you're in a private hotel room when answering emails?
What if one's spouse is taking a shower in hotel room, at same time? Coz spouse accompanied the non-worker to a work conference. But spouse might spot the screen -- so no confidentiality = no work.

What about meeting a potential client in the bar after evening meal at conference; you wouldn't socialise with them but they might be lucrative customer. Spouse comes along. Is this 'work' since spouse & the bar crowd are there to violate confidentiality -- I guess not.

What about a private workpod space in an airport? Can work be done there?

What about reading a scientific published paper while seated on airplane to learn some methods from it. Published info, but I guess that moment can't count as work since the activity isn't entirely confidential.

What if OP is the ONLY one in her train carriage (commuting home at 10pm at night). The guard will pop in -- so that can't be confidential.

If someone is working at home but a child wanders in where they can see the screen, or husband pops head 'round the door to ask where the car keys -- that entire day no longer counts as work coz you know, confidentiality was violated. Maintaining confidentiality is the only thing that matters in terms of calling it 'work' (I hear people saying).

I'm not even sure that working in my workspace counts as confidential, coz frankly, we are crowded in like sardines, and people on all sorts of pay grades could lean over or wander by & see my screen & info on there (violating confidentiality). Those people may be visitors to our office, not employees at all. The window repair guy, the building maintenance manager, clients. So it turns out, I'm not doing work even when I am in the office. I wonder if my employer knows...

www.amazon.co.uk/Gold-Privacy-Filter-inch-MacBook/dp/B00BIDDBRC/ref=sr_1_16?crid=1H6WRB69TAJYX&keywords=privacy+filter+macbook+pro+13&sprefix=privacy+filter%2Caps%2C144&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1568540303&sr=8-16

As @LolaSmiles says, there's a big difference between flexible working and piss-taking. Those who do work flexibly understand it's about the amount of work they actually do on any given day and they can do certain things on a train. OP wants to count her full morning train journey because she looks at emails, regardless of how much work she can actually get done on any given day, regardless of how useful this actually is to her employer and regardless of how much time is actually spent sitting in a seat looking at email on any given day. Some people have roles that can't be done outside the office, others have roles that can be done fully remotely and most people probably fall somewhere in between. This isn't about role differences, now is it about bums on seats versus flexibility, it's about OP trying to pull a fast one and reduce her hours based on spurious "work" amounts when she clearly isn't actually workng very hard.

@YeOldeTrout if you work at home, you have a responsibility to maintain confidentiality.

For example, if I am on a video call at work. I would not do it with my partner or child in the room. Both if them understand they cant just wander in and out if I am working

The people crammed in your office, by virtue of working there have a responsibility to maintain confidentiality. This is why most places have meeting rooms and certain converstations shoildnt be held in an open plan office. You wouldnt call a colleague off sick and discuss everything with everyone else around.

Taking a partner to a business dinner where work is going to be discussed, is not a good idea.

An empty carriage, again you cant plan or guarantee it will remain empty.

Maybe some people havent worked at companies so hot in confidentiality and privacy. But many of us have and appreciate that all work cant be carried out in public.

YeOldeTrout
And yet again, whether the OPs decision to email on the train counts as her working day depends on HER job in HER company and HER roles and HER contract.

It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else's working patterns in different jobs and different companies.

As I've said, she's conveniently not answering any of the questions that people have asked all thread which would enable people to give useful advice. Instead we've got people insisting that anyone can and should be able to work anywhere because anything else is bums on seats mentality.

As few other posters, I'm shocked of the calls people make in train/ public places - calls that are confidential but taken publicly so anyone can tsje the info. Or working in a laptop without privacy screen.

OP's question - as a manager, I'm more willing to give flexibility for someone who also gives back flexibility (like answering some emails out of hours). But if someone was saying they're working on a train, I'd assess firstly if they're security threat for our company, and secondly I'd question it.

YeOldeTrout

Nothing I do is really State Security level clients might disagree but let's them think so

I am in recruitment, EVERYTHING I do is confidential.

If I have a drink with a potential client or candidate, they have made the decision by themselves if they are happy to be seen with me.
If I am looking at your CV, and your boss happens to glance at your name on my laptop, you won't be best pleased... If I am discussing rates with your company, and you glance at the rates of pay in your company, neither your boss nor you will be best pleased either.

How would any of that be an issue in an office, an hotel room, or my own living room.

I still work in the train to be honest, because I know what I am doing, and no one cares about my hours - but I wouldn't allow someone to work reduced hours because he's making up for them in the train! That's just taking the piss.

some people havent worked at companies so hot in confidentiality and privacy

Or, it entirely depends on their actual role and what precautions they take! That's the real reason why everyone can do different things.

Here are some examples to show some differences:
Training materials are private but not confidential.
Communicating with recruiters or prospective suppliers is likewise private, but they aren't usually being given any confidential information and just avoid the confidential bits in public.
Reviewing publicly issued documents such as shareholder communications or financial reports are fine.
Writing of reviewing NDAs and contracts with suppliers of the run-of-the-mill "we'll build X / test Y / supply Z" is private, but unless they're doing something highly confidential it really doesn't matter if anybody reads a few lines.
Replying to a host of internal meeting invites, forwarding emails etc - fine if you have an effective privacy screen and are not working on something highly confidential (e.g. M&A).
Researching publicly available information and taking notes - also fine.
Business or technical specifications - the chances of anybody nearby on a train understanding them from occasional lines they catch sight of are low, the chances of them being able to do anything useful with those snatched glimpses industrial-espionage style without detailed context are usually near zero, it's fine unless there is a reason for the information to be held particularly securely.
Mergers / Acquisitions / Company going into administration etc, you can never have the company name nor logo on screen and can't take any work phonecalls, at most someone could safely write notes on un-branded documents if they have a privacy screen and aren't using names.
If your work has individual people's names attached to their health record, financials or even just their address then you shouldn't even take it out of the office on an encrypted device without a plan for keeping it safe.

When we had a different business we always classed commuting time as working hours if people were demonstrably working, which in the industry was easy to monitor anyway.

Training materials are private but not confidential

Not always. Thata what I am saying f all companies are so different. My last 2 employers considered their training material confidential. One paid a hell of a lot of money to a 3rd party to do training that addressed our specific issues. Which included then coming in and interview staff about their view of the business.

The 3rd party was to develppe training and training materials, for us. Confidentially. They did not want any other people knowing what the courses involved and teb 3rd party couldnt recycle the work for another client.

I also worked for Walmart. Their training definitely includes lots of confidential information. Confidentiality is something g address before anything else.

The point t about a recruiter, not talking about certain things on a train, is exactly why I said earlier that often you can not do your full job role on a train. Dues to confidentiality, which is why some employers do not count commuting as hours worked.

It really comes down to the company and the job.

Lola I don't think we disagree. It depends. The "bums on seats mentality" is definitely evident on this thread though. There are loads of posters saying commuting time cannot be work time. It depends. But if one of my staff, or potential staff, came to be with a friwn up flexible working hours proposal that involved some work on the train, even every day, I would consider it on its merits, work with them to mitigate any potential downsides and balance the lack of ability to direct time against the benefits to recruitment and retention and make a proper call on it. I wouldn't say "that's taking the piss, read a book instead" unless I didn't care that I had suddenly made a job closer to home a damn sight more attractive other employee. Which, again, depends on how much I value them and how replaceable they are.

I would do the same longest. I think overall on flexibility we agree.

I would, however, be suitably sceptical if someone came to me saying they should have a reduction in their hours because they have already decided to be using their train time to answer emails and therefore their commute should be taken out their contracted hours (especially if, for example, there's multiple people in similar jobs who don't email out of work etc).

I think the OP's approach to this is quite sly and their reluctantance to give the information required for people to offer useful advice means they're unlikey to fall into the situation youve outlined above.

You might well be right. I was giving her the benefit of the doubt and she was asking because she was considering how best to pitch her case to her employer. Definitely agree that being in the office has advantages from an employer perspective so you can't just assume this will be ok.

Yes, I consider it to be working.

DH regularly has 4+ hour train journeys, works solidly (emails, reports etc) and claims it as working time.

If it was just the odd email however, rather than a solid session, then I’d not class it as working time.

Of course you’re working - and making good use of your working time imo. If I was your LM I would see the benefit of you keeping on top of your emails/work and be happy with the initiative.
Plus I’m sure it helps out your work/life balance without impacting work so win win.

If your LM is happy for you to count this time towards your contracted hours then go for it and who cares what the rest of the office think. If they want you to be onsite for all contracted hours then just knock it on the head and drink tequila on the train instead.

Put it another way: you have a team at work doing roughly the same job. I wouldn't expect the ones living next door to have to spend more time in the office than the ones commuting who are "working" in the train!

If you have to justify your hours, be in the office to do a certain type of work, of course you don't take off commuting hours from your contractual working day.

I can't imagine the uproar of people's manager walz in the office for 2 hours a day because he makes up the rest in the train. It cannot work.

Again, if you have a job where you don' t have to clock in - I do - then it doesn't matter, but then you don't have to justify yourself in the first place.

I also dislike the idea that high paid men in business class are clearly doing Very Important Work on the train and won't be called out on it while more junior women are "faffing about with their phones while staring out of the window" and taking the piss. If work can be done effectively on the train then in principle that work can be done by anyone.

Depends - I travel for work on trains (overground) and I log on to our company server and take conference calls etc - that’s work. One email here and there I wouldn’t consider ‘working’ on the train. Because if you go underground for an amount of time, how can you be working?

longestlurkerever
not sure where you got that from the thread, why does it always have to be a female vs male thing for some posters?

Well it's quite noticeable to me as an undercurrent/from a general observation of people working on trains and given the gender pay gap I think we ignore this sort of dynamic and unconscious bias at our peril.

DH regularly has 4+ hour train journeys, works solidly (emails, reports etc) and claims it as working time

Presumably not his daily commute though...

I also dislike the idea that high paid men in business class are clearly doing Very Important Work on the train and won't be called out on it while more junior women are "faffing about with their phones while staring out of the window" and taking the piss. If work can be done effectively on the train then in principle that work can be done by anyone

I suspect though that the business class people aren’t trying to reduce their hours to below contract hours by virtue of doing emails etc on their daily commute