To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

I still don't understand why there should be a medicines shortage. Will Europe refuse to sell them to us, or will refuse to let them enter

Tariffs. Manufacturers and suppliers will cease a business opportunity to put prices up and because we are out of the free trade area, it will be legal for them to do so.

OP, I commend your bravery! (Although I shouldn't even have to say this). I am sick and tired of all the constant bashing of Brexiteers. It's the same with politics and the conservative party. People are afraid to speak out for fear of others accusing them of being racist or a 'tory' or selfish etc etc. And what does this do?? It stifles normal discussion. Preconceived ideas go unchallenged when people keep their opinions to themselves or only discuss their views with those who they are certain have similar ideologies. So there ends up being more extreme views at either side of the political spectrum as they push further against each other. It seems that it is considered absolutely fine to repeatedly bash Brexiteers (I've seen a lot of it on MN), but not remainders. I am fed up of people taking a strong viewpoint and not listening to the other side. It is my belief that, had there been opportunity for more proper non confrontational discussion over Brexit, there may have been a clearer idea of the consequences of doing so. And before you all pounce on me, I voted to remain, having listened to many differing view points and have no allegiance to any particular party. What I do feel very strongly about is the importance of listening to differing view points and researching the pros and cons of choices. There seems to no longer be room for civilized constructive polite discussion, only bunfights.

Ah-ha , thank you qualcheckbot

Your whole viewpoint is based on two things;

FEAR and pessimism

Dear God.
Not wanting bad things to happen is a legitimate reason. Whereas choosing to ascribe a of the obvious bad things that will happen to 'project fear' is complete idocacy.

Positive things: I like the European Court of Human Rights, being part of it is brilliant. It provides an extra layer of protection.
I can buy a house in any country in the EU.
I don't need a visa when traveling.
I like that trading with the EU is much more environmentally friendly than trading with brazil, GREENPEACEFRIENDFORLIFE
As a doctor, I LOVE that the European working time directive stopped the culture of 70+hour weeks.
I like being part of something bigger than the UK

I voted remain and I'm horrified that we are where we are. Not because I think the EU is infallible or without flaw. But leaving it ticked more cons than pros for me and I believe change must come from within.

But Thankyou for at least trying to show some reasoning even if I don't agree with those reasons.

Incidentally there's another thread which tells you about freedom of movement. The UK is responsible for the shit we're in. Not the E.U.

To think freedom of movement is not understood by most! http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/3683795-To-think-freedom-of-movement-is-not-understood-by-most

Perhaps if the UK Government spent a teeny fraction of what its spending on Brexit on encouraging the UK population to eat more varieties of fish that are caught in the surrounding waters, but given how much of the quota is now foreign owned ( Cheers, UK government )and probably not even landed here, not sure it would make that much of a difference. Putyourdamnshoeson ?

OP - My dh voted leave and is certainly neither thick nor racist. I still vehemently disagree with him on the subject, but then our political opinions have never really been aligned. Politics is not really about right and wrong, intelligent and dim, it's about your personal belief system and how that affects your interpretation of world events, and it can be as hard to alter someone's political opinions as their religion. I still strongly want to Remain, he is still desperate to Leave. Neither of us is stupid or racist.

I think the extreme ends of both Leave and Remain are equally annoying. The former are self-righteous and dogmatic; the latter are, indeed, often racist and not that bright.

Frumpety, yes that would be a start.

Great post op

@CorBlimeyGovenor

My experience of the referendum campaign was very different to yours then. When I had discussions with leavers or heard discussions in the media, the requests of remainders for more details on why leavers wanted to leave were left unanswered and genuine concerns raised by remainers were belittled as "project fear".

Absolutely nothing has changed in the public discourse since then except that the leave rhetoric has become more and more defiant and extreme. This includes creating the falsehood that it is remainers who are intolerant and won't listen.

I don’t think it’s bashing or whatever for people to get exasperated at the ignorant and callous disregard for Northern Ireland so many Brexiteers are showing... in the H of C, on this thread.
I don’t think Brexiteers people realise what an existential crisis this will be to ‘British’ identity either, as it has highlighted the fundamental differences in social and political attitudes between Scotland and England. So.... UK, free of UK shackles! Free to implode itself.

But maintaining freedom of movement and access to the customs union and single market ARE positives.

Qualbotcheck are you sure tarriffs can be added to medicine on wto terms?

The other institutions are of course in Strasbourg and Brussels

True, the EMA and EBA both moved from London once we decided to leave, oh and the EU youth orchestra too.

Yes the wealth attributed to London by the EU having all its banking functions here doesn't benefit anyone else in europe either does it?

Positive things: I like the European Court of Human Rights, being part of it is brilliant. It provides an extra layer of protection.

The court of human rights isn’t part of the EU. That’s the European Court of Justice

You have got to be joking?! The media was full of experts queuing up to tell you about how this would go down before the referendum. The Northern Ireland issues was mentioned countless times as a major issue in reaching an agreement with the EU.

Yes, it drives me nuts that so many Leave voters ignored the warnings of experts prior to the referendum because of the Dunning-Kruger effect, and now they're saying, "But no one could have predicted this!"

Yanbu op, I appreciate your bravery in saying why you voted leave. I'm a remainer, but I want discussion and trustworthy information from both sides to be available.

I think much of the current perception of the leave side stems from the racists and the elitists being the only people brave enough to state why they're leave, tarring the reputation of any meaningful opposition.

OP brave to make your first post, well done. How interesting that an anonymous forum gives a chance to talk in this way.

Yes, it drives me nuts that so many Leave voters ignored the warnings of experts prior to the referendum because of the Dunning-Kruger effect, and now they're saying, "But no one could have predicted this!"

Yep and Gove saying that people had had enough of experts 🙄 meant that Tony from the Red Lion pub thought his opinions bore as much gravitas as those of the governor of the Bank of England

I voted remain.

What I would say however is that I don’t think it is necessarily “racist” if people are struggling to get GP appointments, get their kids into local schools etc and perceive this, rightly or wrongly, to be a consequence of high levels of immigration into their area.

No one ever listens to people who voice concerns like that though. No one considers why they might feel this way. They are quick to write them off as being narrow minded bigots.

No one put money into the infrastructures of these areas to improve things when people said it wasn’t working, and then they were shouted down as racists when they dared to complain about it. I believe this has played a part in where we are today. It’s easy to shout racist when it’s not your area isn’t it.

I live in Scotland and I don’t believe that we see the same levels of immigration as you do down South. M

A couple of things here....The UK commercial technology sector has not been fully investigated yet. We have a very strong technology talent pool which, I am sure, could come up with a solution for customs without a physical border, if they were asked. Perhaps redirect the HS2 money into a proper research and development project?
Also, a few questions for those in the know about these things...
If we send £1bn to the European bank (for instance), we then apply for some back to regenerate a run down area. Who earns the interest on that £1bn until it is paid back out?
Where are the income and expenditure details for the EU parliament declared and detailed? Who audits them?
Why have they continually refused to reform when they know how much money is wasted on switching locations, for instance?
Did anyone watch the behind the scenes of the EU parliament, programme? There were some very eye opening comments made by Barnier and Juncker that demonstrated what they really thought of the UK and what they want to use the backstop for.
There is just something deeply worrying about those in power over there. It used to be about a common market and common standards.....

i recall when the EU was the EEC and the focus was exclusively on reducing trading friction and barriers. That made a lot of sense to me, and I think the UK chose wisely to keep the GBP as its currency.

I also recall the EEC and was actually there at some of the meetings held in Brussels around 1989-1990. Imho it was just as mind-numbing then as it is now and i will forever hold in my memory the image of one of my college mates fast asleep and snoring in the middle of said meeting! We'd been out clubbing the night before and were late for our bus to the EEC HQ the next morning and some of us still had our pjs on! All good experiencefor a career in politics!

Positivethings: I like the European Court of Human Rights, being part of it is brilliant. It provides an extra layer of protection

As pointed out above, this is nothing to do with continued EU membership. Its confusing terminology. The ECHR is administered through our membership of the Council of Europe. There is another charter of human rights, the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, which gives enhanced rights compared to the ECHR (this is where our Freedom of Information rights came from), and the EU Institution which sounds like the Council of Europe but isn't is the European Council, which is like the Upper Chamber of the legislative arm of the EU.

Erm, anyway, its possible that if and when we leave the EU, our freedom of information rights could be repealed. I think that fairly likely actually and that is really unfortunate.

Alexlee Qualbotcheck are you sure tarriffs can be added to medicine on wto terms?

No, I'm not. Happy to be educated! Though the government does seem worried about something. No doubt licenses have to be purchased for certain drugs and they might not grant them on the same terms (which amounts to a tariff but might take court action to resolve). Or something like that. I'd have to read up on the medical sector and that would take a week!

^I think much of the current perception of the leave side stems from the racists and the elitists being the only people brave enough to state why they're leave, tarring the reputation of any meaningful opposition[

No it’s comes from many many many Leavers stating the reasons for their vote betraying their ignorance and naivety.