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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

About current tenant's request

271 replies

Neonpotato · 04/09/2019 17:26

Name change as outing.

We have a tenant in our 2 bed flat currently, she seems nice.
Our letting agency has told us that apparently our tenant's friend's son is coming over from overseas to study, and she has asked whether it's ok for him to live in the flat. The agency has checked with insurance and it's fine, and it's not considered subletting as she will continue to pay rent and has full responsibility of the flat.

Can I say no? We specified at the very beginning that no students are allowed. I guess it's not so bad if she also lives there but I don't know how long he will be there for, and worry that he will stay on even if she leaves at some point.
It was good of her to ask and I don't want to be a difficult landlord but we don't really want students. Happy to be told that IABU though.

OP posts:
lboogy · 04/09/2019 21:46

I'm not sure what your problem is. He's her son ffs. How odd to say he can't live with her because he's a student . And I say this a landlord myself

shivermetimbers77 · 04/09/2019 21:48

I think YABU. She is a decent tenant and paying a sizeable rent. He is an overseas student who is likely paying hefty tuition fees. If he wanted a party lifestyle he would probably move into a shared house with other students. If he is living with his mum's friend, he is there.to study. I think the benefits of giving the benefit of the doubt to a decent tenant outweigh the costs.

QualCheckBot · 04/09/2019 21:51

WeBuiltThisBuffet I think that landlords having a blanket 'no students' policy is appalling and skating on very thin moral ice.

I agree with your sentiment that it seems odd to object to the doctors, accountants and lawyers of the future.

But its because students can't prove income and nearly always require a guarantor. I think in this case its reasonable. The OP has found and checked one tenant, letting to students is more of a specialised market and the OP just doesn't want to get involved in it.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 04/09/2019 21:52

My friend used to let to students and had many problems (mostly theft/damage of contents). It’s perfectly reasonable to say sorry no students.

Sorry to hear that, but I daresay she should have spent more time interviewing and entering discussions with her potential tenants.

I was a student many years ago and I did know a few students who behaved this way; but I knew countless more who didn't. As well as happening to be students, they were also just people.

I'm not saying this is the case with your friend, but I tended to find that some (not all) of the ones who treated their digs disrespectfully were usually the ones with landlords who refused to provide safe and acceptable conditions or keep things in good repair because "they're only students" - but still charged top prices.

Mitebiteatnite · 04/09/2019 21:52

Joh correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I'm aware, there are no automatic rights to succeed a tenancy if the tenant dies and there was no joint tenant. My own tenancy agreement, with a Housing Association states that someone can only automatically succeed a tenancy if they were a joint tenant. Otherwise you would have houses lived in by people for eternity. Everytime one of the tenants had a child, that child would automatically succeed the tenancy when the main tenant died. Or they could move friends in, and the friends would stay on and move other friends in, and so on ad infinitum.

Joh66 · 04/09/2019 21:56

@DoomsdayCult. You are wrong. See the relevant section of the Act. Particularly 10 regarding Landlord discharging of their duty. This cannot be delegated.

Duties of Landlords

36.—(1)In this regulation—

“landlord” means—

(a)

in England and Wales—

(i)

where the relevant premises are occupied under a lease, the person for the time being entitled to the reversion expectant on that lease or who, apart from any statutory tenancy, would be entitled to possession of the premises; and

(ii)

where the relevant premises are occupied under a licence, the licensor, save that where the licensor is himself a tenant in respect of those premises, it means the person referred to in paragraph (i) above;

(b)

in Scotland, the person for the time being entitled to the landlord’s interest under a lease;

“lease” means—

(a)

a lease for a term of less than 7 years; and

(b)

a tenancy for a periodic term; and

(c)

any statutory tenancy arising out of a lease or tenancy referred to in sub-paragraphs (a) or (b) above,

and in determining whether a lease is one which falls within sub-paragraph (a) above—

(i)

in England and Wales, any part of the term which falls before the grant shall be left out of account and the lease shall be treated as a lease for a term commencing with the grant;

(ii)

a lease which is determinable at the option of the lessor before the expiration of 7 years from the commencement of the term shall be treated as a lease for a term of less than 7 years;

(iii)

a lease (other than a lease to which sub-paragraph (b) above applies) shall not be treated as a lease for a term of less than 7 years if it confers on the lessee an option for renewal for a term which, together with the original term, amounts to 7 years or more; and

(iv)

a “lease” does not include a mortgage term;

“relevant gas fitting” means—

(a)

any gas appliance (other than an appliance which the tenant is entitled to remove from the relevant premises) or any installation pipework installed in any relevant premises; and

(b)

any gas appliance or installation pipework which, directy or indirectly, serves the relevant premises and which either—

(i)

is installed in any part of premises in which the landlord has an estate or interest; or

(ii)

is owned by the landlord or is under his control,

except that it shall not include any gas appliance or installation pipework exclusively used in a part of premises occupied for non-residential purposes.

“relevant premises” means premises or any part of premises occupied, whether exclusively or not, for residential purposes (such occupation being in consideration of money or money’s worth) under—

(a)

a lease; or

(b)

a licence;

“statutory tenancy” means—

(a)

in England and Wales, a statutory tenancy within the meaning of the Rent Act 1977(1) and the Rent (Agriculture) Act 1976(2); and

(b)

in Scotland, a statutory tenancy within the meaning of the Rent (Scotland) Act 1984(3), a statutory assured tenancy within the meaning of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1988(4) or a secure tenancy within the meaning of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987(5);

“tenant” means a person who occupies relevant premises being—

(a)

in England and Wales—

(i)

where the relevant premises are so occupied under a lease, the person for the time being entitled to the term of that lease; and

(ii)

where the relevant premises are so occupied under a licence, the licensee;

(b)

in Scotland, the person for the time being entitled to the tenant’s interest under a lease.

(2)Every landlord shall ensure that there is maintained in a safe condition—

(a)any relevant gas fitting; and

(b)any flue which serves any relevant gas fitting,

so as to prevent the risk of injury to any person in lawful occupation or relevant premises.

(3)Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (2) above, a landlord shall—

(a)ensure that each appliance and flue to which that duty extends is checked for safety within 12 months of being installed and at intervals of not more than 12 months since it was last checked for safety (whether such check was made pursuant to these Regulations or not);

(b)in the case of a lease commencing after the coming into force of these Regulations, ensure that each appliance and flue to which the duty extends has been checked for safety within a period of 12 months before the lease commences or has been or is so checked within 12 months after the appliance or flue has been installed, whichever is later; and

(c)ensure that a record in respect of any appliance or flue so checked is made and retained for a period of 2 years from the date of that check, which record shall include the following information—

(i)the date on which the appliance or flue was checked;

(ii)the address of the premises at which the appliance or flue is installed;

(iii)the name and address of the landlord of the premises (or, where appropriate, his agent) at which the appliance or flue is installed;

(iv)a description of and the location of each appliance or flue checked;

(v)any defect identified;

(vi)any remedial action taken;

(vii)confirmation that the check undertaken complies with the requirements of paragraph (9) below;

(viii)the name and signature of the individual carrying out the check; and

(ix)the registration number with which that individual, or his employer, is registered with a body approved by the Executive for the purposes of regulation 3(3) of these Regulations.

(4)Every landlord shall ensure that any work in relation to a relevant gas fitting or any check of a gas appliance or flue carried out pursuant to paragraphs (2) or (3) above is carried out by, or by an employee of, a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of regulation 3(3) of these Regulations.

(5)The record referred to in paragraph (3)(c) above, or a copy thereof, shall be made available upon request and upon reasonable notice for the inspection of any person in lawful occupation of relevant premises who may be affected by the use or operation of any appliance to which the record relates.

(6)Notwithstanding paragraph (5) above, every landlord shall ensure that—

(a)a copy of the record made pursuant to the requirements of paragraph (3)(c) above is given to each existing tenant of premises to which the record relates within 28 days of the date of the check; and

(b)a copy of the last record made in respect of each appliance or flue is given to any new tenant of premises to which the record relates before that tenant occupies those premises save that, in respect of a tenant whose right to occupy those premises is for a period not exceeding 28 days, a copy of the record may instead be prominently displayed within those premises.

(7)Where there is no relevant gas appliance in any room occupied or to be occupied by the tenant in relevant premises, the landlord may, instead of ensuring that a copy of the record referred to in paragraph (6) above is given to the tenant, ensure that there is displayed in a prominent position in the premises (from such time as a copy would have been required to have been given to the tenant under that paragraph), a copy of the record with a statement endorsed on it that the tenant is entitled to have his own copy of the record on request to the landlord at an address specified in the statement; and on any such request being made, the landlord shall give to the tenant a copy of the record as soon as is practicable.

(8)A copy of the record given to a tenant pursuant to paragraph (6)(b) above need not contain a copy of the signature of the individual carrying out the check if the copy of the record contains a statement that another copy containing a copy of such signature is available for inspection by the tenant on request to the landlord at an address specified in the statement, and on any such request being made the landlord shall make such a copy available for inspection as soon as is practicable.

(9)A safety check carried out pursuant to paragraph (3) above shall include, but shall not be limited to, an examination of the matters referred to in sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of regulation 26(9) of these Regulations.

(10)Nothing done or agreed to be done by a tenant of relevant premises or by any other person in lawful occupation of them in relation to the maintenance or checking of a relevant gas fitting or flue in the premises (other than one in part of premises occupied for non-residential purposes) shall be taken into account in determining whether a landlord has discharged his obligations under this regulation (except in so far as it relates to access to that gas fitting or flue for the purposes of such maintenance or checking).

(11)Every landlord shall ensure that in any room occupied or to be occupied as sleeping accommodation by a tenant in relevant premises there is not fitted a relevant gas fitting of a type the installation of which would contravene regulation 30(2) or (3) of these Regulations.

(12)Paragraph (11) above shall not apply in relation to a room which since before the coming into force of these Regulations has been occupied or intended to be occupied as sleeping accommodation.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 04/09/2019 21:56

the LA definitely should not have changed the contract without your permission

I didn't think it was the actual tenancy agreement which had been changed - didn't OP say it was the insurers who'd changed the statement of facts on the policy (presumably on the agent's instructions)? Though if the agent's prepared to go off piste like this without checking properly with OP, who knows what else they may have done

I'm not sure either why PPs are suggesting tenants are being prevented from "living a normal life" in the homes they pay so much for. They can after all live exactly as they wish to, just so long as they don't break their tenancy agreement

MrsWobble3 · 04/09/2019 21:56

If you want to agree to the request then get the student added to the tenancy agreement as a permitted occupier. This prevents them gaining squatters rights and obliges the named tenant to take responsibility for their actions. I’m not a lawyer but this is what we were advised to do when our tenant’s girlfriend wanted to move in but did not want to be on the tenancy agreement because she had no income. We were happy to do this because we had no issues with the tenant and were very happy to keep letting to him.

MerdedeBrexit · 04/09/2019 21:57

wurlycurly - think you may have mistaken me for someone else. Am a landlord who is totally pro-tenants, unless they shaft me. And even then, they shaft meSmile

HelenaDove · 04/09/2019 22:00

"My own tenancy agreement, with a Housing Association states that someone can only automatically succeed a tenancy if they were a joint tenant. Otherwise you would have houses lived in by people for eternity"

This is why i do not recommend the child OR adult child of a social housing tenant being a full time carer for an elderly or ill parent. Phone SS hand ALL responsibility over to the state. Because its likely if you give up work to care your thanks will be homelessness when your parent dies.

HelenaDove · 04/09/2019 22:02

Read John Boughtons The Rise and Fall of Council Housing. Social housing was meant to be a home for life.

DoomsdayCult · 04/09/2019 22:15

@Joh66
Nope, sorry. Again a case of you reading it wrong. #10 is saying that tenants or occupants cannot do this on behalf of the landlord.
Says nothing about a property manager who is legally an agent of the landlord. When you have a letting agency who manages your property, they become the LL for most requirements.
See here
propertyindustryeye.com/letting-agent-hit-3000-bill-failing-get-gas-safety-check/

Joh66 · 04/09/2019 22:15

@HelenaDove yes since 2012 social housing providers have been able to exclude succession but not the PR sector.

DoomsdayCult · 04/09/2019 22:19

And here
“You need to prove that you have checked your tenant’s immigration status before they moved in. The obligation is on the landlord to ensure the check is done, although if you employ a lettings’ agent it will be part of their responsibility.”

Read more: www.which.co.uk/news/2018/06/over-400-landlords-fined-for-right-to-rent-breaches/ - Which?

expat101 · 04/09/2019 22:20

I think you need to know a bit more detail about the student. For instance how old is this student? Mature age or someone coming out of school and attempting to gain a better education for themselves?

Perhaps (sadly) I would be suss on a mature aged student as (at least where I live) adults use the student visa to come to live and work in the country where I reside, getting around the residency rules.

On the other hand, when our DD was at Uni and in private hall like accommodation, they welcomed overseas students, lecturers and mature aged students because they (generally) conducted themselves a lot better than the local crowd. There was also an on-site manager who sorted people out pretty quickly too.

However, as a former Landlord, I cannot see how you can restrict your Tenant's right to use the property as she sees fit.

Personally, if she was a good tenant, I would give permission (Nice of her to ask too) on the agreement that your property manager does a formal inspection 1 month after arrival and every 6 months thereafter for a period of 18 months.

wurlycurly · 04/09/2019 22:26

@MerdedeBrexit sorry most of that message wasn’t directed at you... just to people who wouldn’t let to a student even if they would be living with someone older and more settled. Of course some students are older and more settled themselves!
I was just saying that I was a landlord as well as being a tenant.

karoLina11 · 04/09/2019 23:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SillyMoomin · 05/09/2019 00:02

karoLina11 is spouting horrible nastiness about any landlord she can find a thread about tonight... Hmm

Neonpotato · 05/09/2019 00:18

I think it's unfair to say that the tenants are funding some sort of a luxury lifestyle for us...

This was our first flat in a city that we very much love, but don't currently live in due to work commitments, otherwise we'd love to live in that flat! It is in very good condition, in a very good location in a sought after city, so we charge accordingly. We don't have a mortgage and aren't relying on the tenants for anything. If it's empty we could probably stay there every now and again, but surely that would be a bit of a waste?

I don't get the hate for landlords to be honest. Not everyone does it for a livingHmm.

OP posts:
dodgeballchamp · 05/09/2019 00:34

If you haven’t got a mortgage and aren’t relying on the tenants why are you thinking of increasing the rent? That seems very greedy

Neonpotato · 05/09/2019 00:37

Because we set it low-ish since a few years ago...everything is more expensive now including agency fees.

OP posts:
chickenyhead · 05/09/2019 00:40

Landlords have the right to set fair value rent!

I think the anti landlord came after the anti tenant on this thread.

However the reality is that it is a contract. Equally important specified rights on each side

dodgeballchamp · 05/09/2019 00:43

Private rents largely aren’t ‘fair value’ though are they, they’re vastly inflated, especially in cities. Extra costs associated with landlording aren’t the tenant’s problem.

chickenyhead · 05/09/2019 00:58

That is the reality of the Tory government and failure to implement a cap on private rent. I pay 4x the rent of my friends in social housing. I have to earn an additional 1800 per month just to match their income.

It is life. Not the landlords fault. You sign a contract, you agree to the terms.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 05/09/2019 01:25

I think it's unfair to say that the tenants are funding some sort of a luxury lifestyle for us...

Maybe not luxury and maybe not right now, but if you have ownership of and a mortgage on a property in addition to your primary home and tenants are paying you a large chunk of (or even more than) that mortgage payment, then in 25 years, you will own the house outright for not a lot of work from you whereas the tenants will have paid likely more than they would have done for a mortgage (granted, probably not the same tenants for 25 years) and yet they will still own precisely 0% of the house.

If they are paying you the rent and you don't have a mortgage on the house then you're getting a very nice extra chunk each month over and above your salary/other income - again for not a lot of work from you.

I'm not knocking it as an investment or suggesting that landlords are doing anything unethical, but you are getting to have a significantly nicer standard of living (whether now or in your retirement) most likely at the expense of somebody else's not being able to save for a deposit - or even being refused a mortgage that would actually be cheaper than the rent that they're dutifully paying each month.