To think that people don't budget carefully enough these days?

[daffodilrosedaisy]

I've come across several people recently who are living hand to mouth, and struggling to afford things... BUT spend out on what I would consider unnecessary luxuries. Examples:

• Struggling to pay rent for a large family each month, ended up in huge debt to their landowners and got kicked out... but have newest iPhones, iPads for all the kids, big TV etc.

• Unable to pay for boiler and car to be fixed at the same time in winter, so had to take out a big loan to buy new ones of both, but go on two week holidays abroad, and again own high-end electronics.

I'm not referring to people that are never able to save, because their living costs equate to what they earn. I mean people who seem to get their priorities wrong and spend lots on 'luxuries' but don't budget for the basics like rent, and having a contingency fund for when things go wrong (broken boiler/car etc.).

AIBU in thinking this is ridiculous? Especially when people have families to care for?

Parents aren't teaching their children anything about money! Not even how to count it!

I get children (not even little children but ten eleven twelve years old) in the shop buying sweets that come to (say) two pounds eighty. They've got a fist full of change, pound coins and fifty pences etc, and they just sort of fling the whole lot at me and let me count it out for them! Sometimes they are throwing a fiver's worth of money at me to pay for a pound's worth of sweets.

What chance to they stand when they really don't understand what each coin is worth and how to count it out?

PS. for anyone sick of living pay cheque to pay cheque, and really interested in getting in control of their finances, I cannot recommend You Need a Budget (YNAB) enough. Truly life changing stuff!

OP, Totally understand where you're coming from.
I have had to distance myself from a friend of mine in the last year because I became increasingly frustrated at her apparent inability to understand that blowing all of her money meant she would be struggling for the basics, and I got sick to death of her telling me I should be helping her out because I knew she was skint, that according to her, I had more money than her, her ridiculous suggestions about what I should buy, and just the never ending topic of money in the conversation, which I would do whatever I could to avoid talking about.
She ended up repeatedly telling me that money was the most important thing in the world and that her DH was constantly accusing her of being obsessed with money. He would tell her "Money is your God!"

Examples; Her and her DH had 5 mobile phones on contract, one each and one for each of their 3 adult children.
They have sky tv with films and sports costing well over £100 per month.
Both her and her DH have awful credit ratings and rent a large house which costs them £1500 per month, because they want their DC to have their own rooms which is fair enough but none of the DC contribute towards their living costs.
She got a car on PCP, drives her DC wherever they want to go and pays for driving lessons for all three of them.
She says it is the parents responsibility to provide each adult child with a car too.
Last year, her DF sadly died.
She was left 48K in his will. She spent it on a holiday of a lifetime for all 5 of them to America, new appliances in the kitchen and a new fence. It was completely gone within a year.
Then her and her DH cashed in their pensions and that's all gone now, but they are under the impression that when they retire (within the next 10 years) that they will get a full state pension as well as full pension credit because they dont have any private pension left to subsidize their state pensions and they cannot afford to live on a state pension.
She tells me she is ashamed to admit that she is now waiting for her DM to pass away so she can receive yet another cash injection to sort herself out, because she cant see any other way and her DM has some equity release deal with her house.
Her in laws died years ago and the money she received in their will was hoovered up within months on cars and holidays, meals out and clothes/gadget shopping.
I dont think she is capable of saving money because she cant leave it alone.
Her DM doesnt know the half of the debt she is in, or how much she is struggling, but knows she has financial problems and is terrified of going into a care home because she wants to help her DD.
I cant listen to it anymore so I have distanced myself from her.
She buys on impulse and cannot see that it is her spending that is the main issue rather than her belief that 55K joint income is not enough to live on.
Her DH is just as bad but tends to stick his head in the sand about it and just says he will have to work until he drops.
I actually hate hearing how much she is suffering but it seems every time they are thrown a lifeline in the form of an inheritance or a tax rebate or cashing in their pensions, they cant relax until it is spent.
I am earning less than 24K a year yet she thinks I am lucky to live cheaply enough to survive on this.

But people’s priorities are different

No they really are not. Shelter and food are priorities.

Mortgage/rent
Utilities
Food
Insurances
Council Tax

Anything else is a want.

The fact that people choose to put their wants above their bills is the problem and the fact they expect their family and friends to bail them out, because of what ever bullshit excuse they come out with to make everyone around them guilty.

@duffeldaisy You obviously haven't read the whole thread, I'm not going to repeat everything here but one of them recently took out a £79.00 per month phone contract, which is very different to £10.

I was never taught either, but it's basic maths. If you have £10 and spend £15, you've overspent.

See, I see it as if you have £10 and you spend £10, you've overspent. Then again, I know I only have the luxury of being 'good with money' because I have enough of it. Can't save if you have nothing left, and as someone else said, it's easier to delay gratification when you know the gratification's coming.

I'm sure there must be an element of it that's physiological too - sometimes other people's attitudes to money make me think their brains are actually fundamentally different to mine.

For those that do wish they were better at budgeting but often the little things add up (that sandwich from Tesco, that coffee from Costa) - having a banking app that can connect to your bank account can be a real help. Something like 'wallet' or 'spendee' you can hook up and they'll see all your payments out and categorise them.

Its like having an automatic diary of your spending so you can see each week/month how much you're wasting on things you know you shouldn't - you may ignore the odd coffee here and there because its only a couple of quid, but seeing all those little things added up over a month can be an eye opener.

I used to be terrible at spending money I didn't have - started at uni. Still have problems with it but not as bad as I used to be. Also my wife taught me some good discipline - like transfer spare money to her so she can put it in the savings account :) and we roughly work out yearly costs like car tax/insurance and divide that into a monthly amount to avoid those sneaking up on you.

I am one of these people you all hate and call stupid.
I work 40 hours per week, I study in the evenings. There is nothing more I could do to increase my income. Colleagues on the same wage as me are lucky enough to have low mortgages/cheap rent/partners to split costs with and can afford luxuries whilst putting in the same effort. I simply don't believe I should be doing all I can working hard, studying and bringing up my child alone for that child to never have days out, the latest toys all her peers have, a reasonable standard of living.

If I paid all my bills each month we'd be barely eating, nothing to do, couldn't run a car, wouldn't be able to socialise and....would be totally miserable. I prioritise the roof over our head (rent) and my childs happiness over anything...

Fully aware my behaviour is 'entitled' but it is only me that has to deal with the consequences of this, the bailiffs, the court system, the sleepless nights, worry and judgment from people..

It think it’s unfair to be judgemental because budgeting and forecasting are skills that not all people have, and if they are not taught it can bd very hard to override that behaviour in adulthood, especially if you are already quite poor so have few luxuries anyway. As in, the less money you have to spend on nice things, the more tempting it is. For example if you’re so poor you can afford only basic groceries week to week, it becomes incredibly hardness on payday to avoid buying our family a nice fish and chips and some ice cream.

This is just a trivial example but I do really think it’s cruel to judge. Even though it may not seem like it to you, living a chaotic and dysfunctional lifestyle which means you are impulse buying when you can and scrimping by the rest of the time is a real and common phenomenon.

There is literally no point judging outwardly, just count your blessings that you’re not the one shelling out on expensive luxuries while knowing in the back of your mind you can’t afford it. I promise it is not as straightforward as you think it is. As a pp said, life is getting harder, even affording basics is becoming more of a struggle for many people.

I do not judge others financial situations as I’ve seen many sides of it.

Siblings can be very different despite having the same upbringing.

I have never spent more than I earn. The only "debt" I've ever had was the mortgage. I have always paid off my credit cards in full every month and never taken out any HP, loans etc. That is despite starting my working life on less than £1 per hour back in 1983.

My brother was the exact opposite. He left school and got a much better paid job in BT. He went out to buy a fancy record deck from Tandy with his first pay packet, but saw he could get a store card instead, so he bought it on credit. On his first monthly statement he saw he only needed to pay a trivial amount, so that's what he did. He also noticed he had a credit limit of a few hundred pounds, so he literally went straight to the store and spent it all on things he didn't need. He was literally a kid in a sweet shop. He then did the same with Hepworths for clothing (a High St brand at that time). Rinse and repeat and before you know it, he owed thousands across several store cards. That was decades ago, and he literally never recovered. His entire life has been one store card/credit card after another and just repaying the minimum amount. His house is literally bursting at the seems with consumer goods - you can't get in his spare room. Fair enough, but he does nothing but complain about not having any money, can't afford holidays, can't afford a decent car, and is always making jealous/envious jibes at the holidays I have. (Despite him earning way more than me over our working lives!).

Some people are beyond help.

But fundamentally are people worse these days? I don’t know

I'm not convinced they are, TBH - but there's certainly been a change in attitudes to fecklessness. In a world where "mustn't judge" becomes the mantra, it's hardly surprising if those who wish to avoid responsibility for anything at all develop a mulish entitlement

And just to add, feeling relatively poor also comes under this category and people of any and all incoe brackets are susceptible to this way of thinking. But if I’m any case essential bills aren’t being met even when there is physically enough money, it’s all the same mentality underneath.

Buying your family, not our. We do by good in as a payday treat but also budget for nice food during the week. But I have definitely been in the situation I am describing and really, it isn’t easy.

There are so many factors in play which people ignore in favour of deciding peopel are “entitled” and “feckless”. It’s very hard to read.

@Clutterbugsmum

You clearly don’t know what the difference is between Priorities and Necessities

Your list is necessities (things that you HAVE to pay for) and like you said things that should always top of the list.

The OP stated something about her friend not being able to afford a holiday she ‘should have budgeted for’ but thinks her friend paying her phone bill isn’t a priority.

Yes the phone bill is expensive but that’s obviously a priority to her friend. The holiday is obviously important to OP. That’s her priority.

See the difference ??

And yes people are worse off - we spend a larger proportion of income on housing costs than ever and costs like food prices are also rapidly rising.

Coming on AIBU and speaking sense never ends well. Be prepared to have your comments twisted to suit the agendas of everyone else. FWIW I completely agree with you.

I agree, but we won't be popular.
I am also not talking about people who live hand to mouth and can't afford to save.
It's those whose priorities are skewed, you just want to shout don't be so stupid.
All you can do is to raise your children to understand the difference, luckily our older grown up dc learned this lesson from a young age and even though one is only min wage has managed to save a house deposit, mortgage and a few grand buffer for if something goes wrong

However, no take aways, eating out, entertainment subscriptions, nights out drinking. Keep the monthly outgoings to a minimum because they add up to quite a bit over the year. But people hear £20 per month, or even £5.99 pm and think that isn't much I can afford that. They might well be able to afford it at the time, but they moan when there's a bill or something unexpected they can't afford.

@daffodilrosedaisy

£79 per month for a phone contract? Are you sure?

I've had a look and even with the most up to date iPhones it's not that high. But there are a lot of deals which is £79 up front, followed by much smaller amounts per month. That's surely more likely?

I still don't think you should be judgemental though. People have different reasons for things that you can't possibly know, have mental health issues you may know nothing about.

Keto yes I have a funeral plan, enough to pay for a simple one, not interested in fancy coffins because I won't see it and I'm not having my kids waste money on fancy shit etc and I've communicated that to my children.

phone contracts are terrible value generally. I get you might want to spread the cost of your phone but one of the best things you can do is go SIM only. £10-15 max per month will give you all the data/calls/texts you'll need. Then you can just buy a phone seprarately. If you are careful with what you pick it'll easily last you longer than the usual 2 year phone contracts and in those times when you've paid off your phone, your overall bill per month is just the SIM which is much lower than almost any contract would be.

I think too there are so many things we are now persuaded are essentials to have, and to have the very best of. An internet enabled phone, yes a top of the range phone, not so much. A raincoat, yes, a designer name raincoat, not so much. And the list goes on.

I do think social media has an influence, I think that our ideas of what constitutes a necessity have shifted so much. I also think the idea of compromising in the short term for longer term gain is pretty alien to some folk.

By way of example, I know of adult children who live in their parents home, not paying any contribution towards the household expenses who can’t afford to save or move out because they “need” a premium marque car, a top end phone, an iMac, 2 holidays a year, etc etc. And their parents buy into it all not asking for money but not insisting they save - in both cases the young folk are in jobs which would be considered well paid by any measure. What the young adults concerned mean is that they couldn’t pay into the household or afford to move out and maintain their current lifestyle.

It’s none of my business, until my friend talks about feeling unwelcome in their own home because their young people are ever present. Of course they are, they have absolutely no incentive to move out.

@CTRL You've got the wrong end of the stick again. My friend spends a lot on luxuries that aren't necessary. We'd booked a holiday together (UK, short break) and I'd paid the £150 deposit. She then cancelled a week before saying she couldn't go as she had to pay rent instead. We were due to pay the remaining balance then, and she was going to pay me her £75 deposit then too. I wasn't saying anything about this being mine or her priority, I was saying that her putting me £150 out of pocket meant that the way she chooses to spend her money has directly affected me, as a PP said it was none of my business.

I'm not convinced they are, TBH - but there's certainly been a change in attitudes to fecklessness. In a world where "mustn't judge" becomes the mantra, it's hardly surprising if those who wish to avoid responsibility for anything at all develop a mulish entitlement

I'd second this. I am a fan of judgement. Exercising it is always a good thing. Thinking about how your actions might reasonably be limited by the judgement of others is another.

As I said though - I can easily convince myself to wait because I know that a) I can stop waiting to treat myself at any time and b) I know when the end point is. I can also easily convince myself to buy the cheaper option, because it's not the only nice thing I can afford.

One of my pet peeves is people convincing themselves that if they buy the second or third best version of the thing they want, it's not worth buying the thing at all. I encounter this quite frequently.

I habitually look at buying a new thing, and then looking at the options, and usually settling for one that is budget or mid-range. I've noticed many other people talk themselves up in expectations until they max out their budget.