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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think these two things are exactly the same...?

63 replies

smokeytoby · 03/09/2019 14:24

Heated debate with male friend who, until now, I shared very similar views with. Need some opinions on if the comparison I gave was reasonable.

We started having a general discussion about dating and meeting people, and he was telling the general ways he likes to flirt with women on nights out or online. Some of the things he was mentioning was a bit "forward", for example touching her arm or back while chatting with her at a bar, trying to dance very closely to her, grinding on a girl he likes the look of, making sexual jokes to her and stuff like that.

I said that it would be a bit weird to do some of that to someone you'd just met and were trying to talk to, not even yet knowing their name.

He said I was being ridiculous and that girls like it when guys come up and grind on them in clubs etc. I disagreed strongly, saying a lot of women aren't keen on feeling some random guys knob pushing up against them purposely in a club, which is when I then gave the comparison:

" Don't do anything to a girl in a club, that you wouldn't want a gay man to do to you . If she does not reciprocate the behaviour, it is because it makes her uncomfortable and she is not interested in you. It would be the same as if a gay man was flirting with you by doing these things, I can guarantee that you partly due to your massive ego would hit the roof if another bloke pushed his package into your arse while you're trying to dance with friends".

He didn't understand this, saying how the gay man would know he isn't interested as he is straight (like that is in any way obvious unless they had asked him?!).

Anyway, am I unreasonable to think that if blokes acted towards him the way he acted towards girls, he would have a massive issue with it? And not just him, but guys in general. The amount of men who would happily send a random girl some gross, inappropriate message in the hopes of getting a sexy response, but would be outraged if another man sent them the same message with the same intentions.

OP posts:

Drogosnextwife · 03/09/2019 15:02

He said I was being ridiculous and that girls like it when guys come up and grind on them in clubs etc.

I find it quite amusing that some men actually believe this. They have such a low opinion of woman and are totally convinced that a woman will definitely want to be touched by them, do they think it will make that woman feel more confident or validated? Probably not, they just do it for their own sick pleasure regardless of how it makes the woman feel about herself. Egotistical shite.

Boswellisdead · 03/09/2019 15:23

Ha, yes, the old, "But I'd love it if a woman did that to me" shtick. Well, you might if she was a drop-dead gorgeous nymphomaniac, but even then you'd probably wet yourself in fear. And to be equivalent, it would have to be a woman that he was not attracted to, just some randomer. He wouldn't like it so much if Mrs Grumblywicket from no. 34 grabbed his crotch over the beans in Lidl and unrolled a tit onto him.

He's an arse.

Do men actually believe women like this shit? I am so glad I am too old to go to clubs now, no more sweaty boners or paws being pressed into my thigh. Urgh.

AmIRightOrAMeringue · 03/09/2019 15:23

So your friends touches women before gaining consent. Sounds a bit close to sexual assault to me. Presumably if he had a gf or a sister he would be happy for other guys to grind against them before checking they're single and interested and want to be touched as well?

AryaStarkWolf · 03/09/2019 15:30

It's no wonder actual rape seems to be legal .............

AryaStarkWolf · 03/09/2019 15:31

other guys to grind against them before checking they're single

I'm sure he'd be mortified if he knew that the girl belonged to another man and would apologise to him if that was the case :p

magicstar1 · 03/09/2019 15:40

I'm sure he'd be mortified if he knew that the girl belonged to another man and would apologise to him if that was the case :p

That exact thing happened to me in London. A guy stared right down my top, and then apologised to my male friend who was beside me. I was completely livid and ready to headbutt the prick.

Pukkatea · 03/09/2019 15:41

In my clubbing days any man who tried to grind on me got kicked very hard in the shins.

AryaStarkWolf · 03/09/2019 15:42

That exact thing happened to me in London. A guy stared right down my top, and then apologised to my male friend who was beside me. I was completely livid and ready to headbutt the prick.

If there was ever any doubt that alot of men still view us as objects for men to possess.............

Aquamarine1029 · 03/09/2019 15:45

The only question I have is why are you friends with such a repulsive twat? He's absolutely disgusting.

Original poster

smokeytoby · 03/09/2019 15:49

As stated in my previous replies, we are no longer friends.

OP posts:

ihatethecold · 03/09/2019 15:53

It’s called male privilege and it makes me very cross that it’s everywhere.
I attended a women’s aid ambassador training course recently and I’d like to think I understand about women being oppressed but it really opened my eyes to how men can behave and victim blaming.

Grumpos · 03/09/2019 15:55

Bet he complains that he never gets the girl even though he’s a “nice guy”

BLUEEEGH

ComftyCushion · 03/09/2019 17:00

Clearly I don't mean that a woman belongs to a man, I worded it badly, I meant that this guy thinks randomly grinding on a girl is flirting, where as usually if a bloke approaches a girls and talks to her can she shut it straight down by saying she's in a relationship and therefore not interested, or obviously that she's just not interested. Same as if a woman chatted up a bloke and he said he was in a relationship that is usually the clear indication they're not up for being chatted up.

ComftyCushion · 03/09/2019 17:01

God I hate phone typing it never makes sense when I read it back!

whattodowith · 03/09/2019 17:02

He sounds like a fan of sexual assault to me, I don’t think I would consider him a friend anymore.

Nonnymum · 03/09/2019 17:05

You are absolutely right but I don't think he and his silly mates would ever accept it.

AryaStarkWolf · 03/09/2019 17:08

@ComftyCushion not sure if you were clarifying that because of my post but if you were I wasn't suggesting that you thought that, the whole single thing just reminded me of the other thing men sometimes do in these situations, you know that it's only wrong if the girl belongs to another man, not if she herself doesn't want to be touched by some stranger

Howlovely · 03/09/2019 17:17

This sex pest needs to be on some kind of list.
Urgh, I bet nearly all of us can remember something like this happening to us in clubs/pubs and how it made us feel and the thought we gave it afterwards. Compare that to how it made the men feel and the thought they gave it afterwards, i.e. I bet they don't even remember it but we do. I bet you that if this happened just once to a man (a gay man doing it to them) they'd never stop going on about it and how disgusted they are yet they will do it to woman after woman, night after night. I can't believe this is still common place in 2019, it makes me a bit sad for my daughter.

PettyContractor · 03/09/2019 17:38

I'm sure there are lots of heterosexual men who, when groped by someone they in no way found attractive, would feel utterly different if the groper were male rather than female. Being groped by a male would be (quickly makes up a number) about ten times as big an issue as being groped by an unattractive female.

I think it only makes sense to say being groped by a gay man is equivalent to being groped by a woman if the man being groped is openly bisexual. (But even then there's the issue that being groped by a man is probably always worse, for victims of both sexes, as men are generally stronger and more threatening.)

DinoroarDinosaur · 03/09/2019 17:57

I can't believe men still do this. When I was 16-24 (back in the mid 1990s to early 2000s) this sort of thing was absolutely everywhere. I was constantly being groped on nights out, having penis' rubbed against me on the dance floor, men saying disgusting things etc etc. There was one time I went to a club wearing a top that fastened at the back from top to bottom. As I was walking to the toilet a man grabbed hold of the fastener and started undoing my top. When I told him to stop it he called me "a fucking whore" and started threatening me. It was really frightening.

No one spoke about any of this behaviour in a negative way back then so it wasn't until I was a bit older that I realised that this fondling, groping, rubbing penis' against women's bodies etc was sexual assault. We all sort of put up with it back then, even though it made us feel uncomfortable. However, I thought men had stopped this kind of behaviour now and I am shocked that your ex-friend thinks that this behaviour is acceptable these days.

SignedUpJust4This · 03/09/2019 18:47

So a gay guy shouldn't do. It because he's straight and therefore not interested. However, all straight girls must be interested?

Dickhead. Women might smile and laugh when men behave like this but it's a protection mechanism. We've learned it's best to smile and move away. Men like this don't like to be turned down.

Sparklesocks · 03/09/2019 18:58

This reminds me of a time in my mid 20s when I was dancing in a club with some friends and I could see two guys in my peripheral vision giggling, mere seconds later one of them ‘falls’ dramatically (possibly the worst acting of all time) and grabs my breasts ‘accidentally’ as he stumbles down. Then he apologises with a shit eating grin and explains he couldn’t help it as he’d fallen, his mate laughing hysterically.

It’s just banter though!! Girls like it!!

UnaCorda · 03/09/2019 19:08

having penis' rubbed against me

Penis'? Penis' what?

HeadLikeAFkingOrange · 03/09/2019 19:10

grinding on a girl he likes the look of

That sounds like the sort of behaviour my miniature Jack Russell used to exhibit. He once tried to hump my hair straighteners.
Your mate is a creep.

HaileySherman · 03/09/2019 19:26

I agree with you. It seems to be precisely the same thing. Men who don't accept that are problematic in my eyes. They are the ones who believe they are god's gift to women. They can't imagine that a woman wouldn't appreciate the attention and even feel lucky for it, even if they ultimately weren't interested. He sounds disgusting to me.

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