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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To say there is no such thing as "altruistic" surrogacy?

491 replies

FannyCann · 01/09/2019 09:48

To say there is no such thing as altruistic surrogacy and that this fiction is a massive state sponsored fraud?

The Law Commission has a Consultation to review surrogacy laws in the UK and you have til 11th October to respond.

There are 16 questions relating to payment, but they find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Admit women are paid for this “service” and recommend full commercial surrogacy puts the UK on a par with countries such as Uganda, the Ukraine and Russia. The UN Special Rapporteur links commercial surrogacy with the sale of babies. So of course we don’t do that in the UK. Oh no. We have “altruistic” surrogacy here. Surrogates are merely recompensed for expenses incurred as a result of the pregnancy, plus the odd “gift”.
So altruistic that from the Law Commioners own research into payments surrogates have been receiving, the median payment was £14,795.54 and 9.61% were paid more than £20,000.

Payments were claimed for things like takeaway meals and cleaners.

This is clearly State Sponsored Fraud. I challenge anyone to produce receipts to prove their pregnancy cost them £20,000

I also suggest that this puts surrogates in a tricky situation should HMRC or the benefits office ever take an interest in the origin of that £20k. It is very wrong for the law to encourage this fraud.

I ask you to look at the background and if you want to have a say into whether commercial surrogacy should be allowed in the UK please respond.

Here is a link to the Nordic Model Now template which you can download and use to respond in ten minutes.

https://nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/30/how-to-respond-to-the-uk-surrogacy-consultation-in-10-easy-minutes//_

You can find moe background and discussion of the Consultation on this thread.

Building families through surrogacy: A new Law - Consultation
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3649812-building-families-through-surrogacy-a-new-law-consultation

To say there is no such thing as "altruistic" surrogacy?
To say there is no such thing as "altruistic" surrogacy?
To say there is no such thing as "altruistic" surrogacy?
OP posts:
itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted · 03/09/2019 22:03

@IcedPurple

Then surrogacy should be made completely illegal to protect everyone. It's inhumane for the biological mother of a child to spend 9 months anticipating its arrival (remember surrogacy is usually only used by women who have fertility problems) to be refused it on birth because someone simply changed their mind. To protect both parties it's better to ban it completely

As should egg and sperm donation then as those are usually given as part of a business transaction (the donor's cycle being funded by the recipient) and the donor's right to be the mother to ALL her embryos shouldn't be voided by paperwork either

IcedPurple · 03/09/2019 22:06

Then surrogacy should be made completely illegal to protect everyone.

That's what I've been arguing all along.

itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted · 03/09/2019 22:12

@IcedPurple
Then I agree with you 🤣

I've suffered infertility and almost died (twice) in the pursuit of having children but I wouldn't consider surrogacy (altruistic or otherwise) or egg donation. I figure if it's not meant to be then that's life. I couldn't have tried any harder or given any more than I have already and will have no regrets that there was something i could have done but didn't x

Teddypicker1 · 03/09/2019 22:18

@IcedPurple thank you, that's exactly what I was going to say.

I'd also like to point out again the dehumanisation of the surrogate and baby.

FannyCann · 04/09/2019 06:23

I do not do the sort of job that allows me to interact with social media during the day so apologies for not responding the past couple of days.

I worded the thread title badly, as I had really wanted discussion about the legitimacy of the Law Commission plans and their dressing up of surrogacy in the UK as being purely altruistic.

I accept that there are a very few women who are happy to go through pregnancy and childbirth for no material reward for close relatives or friends, indeed the commissioners’ own research showed one woman performed the service for a modest £470. However, they are in the minority and most women will expect some financial reward. Their research shows that the median payment was £14,795 with 9.61% being paid more than £20,000 and there has been significant increase in payments in recent years with a growth of 9.9% in the £10,000 to £15000 range between 2015 and 2018.

Hence the central dishonesty at the heart of the Law Commission’s plans. They recognise that the commercial surrogacy model is not popular in the UK : “14.63 Even with safeguards in place to protect against the exploitation of women, it may be considered that allowing payment for the gestational service a surrogate provides would send out the wrong message about how surrogacy is seen within the UK.”
So in order to seem more palatable and to comply with recommendations of the United Nations they seek an “altruistic” model. However, as I mentioned previously this creates a dilemma as the commissions’ recommendations will lead to a much larger surrogacy industry with many players making a profit:
“14.54 ^It is notable that other people involved in surrogacy receive payment for their contribution. Lawyers and medical staff receive their professional fees, while private fertility clinics, for example, operate on a commercial basis. Indeed, it seems that the role of surrogate – a role uniquely played by women42 – is the only one that the law prohibits from being recognised by receipt of payment. It may therefore be argued that not permitting payments undervalues the role of the surrogate:
14.55 It may be suggested, therefore, that not permitting surrogates to receive payment is a form of exploitation: surrogates are uniquely deprived of the choice whether to be paid for the service that they provide.^”
Thus they seek to pay women, so as not to be seen to be exploitative, by dressing it up as expenses, whilst maintaining a fiction that it is an altruistic model.
I don’t see how such an inherently dishonest system can be passed into law.
A previous poster mentions the largest cost was her loss of earnings, but 20 weeks maternity leave at £15,000 equates to an annual salary of £39,000. Most jobs at that level would provide maternity pay. Are they claiming maternity pay as well as “expenses”? I feel that could be problematic with HMRC , not to mention employers who I feel might rightly object to being expected to fund maternity pay for someone who was also claiming loss of pay to have a baby for someone else. Women fought for maternity benefits, there is still much discrimination with employers finding ways to dismiss women when they become pregnant. This does nothing for wider women’s rights.

Question 42
“19.51 We provisionally propose that the current ban on advertising in respect of surrogacy should be removed, with the effect that there will be no restrictions on advertising anything that can lawfully be done in relation to surrogacy arrangements.”
How is a system that includes unrestricted advertising anything but commercial? Advertisers certainly don’t do it for love. So the fact is that these plans seek to expand an open market in surrogacy.

I am also very concerned about other aspects of the consultation. Why, I wonder, did they consult with representatives from the Ukraine and not with our own RCM and RCOG? There is no consideration at all on the impact on the NHS.

In 502 pages and 118 questions there is barely a mention of egg donors. Where do they think all the eggs will come from?
In the USA young women, particularly college students,( high IQ, attractive and sporty women are very sought after) are targeted, harassed and coerced into selling their eggs.
No one tells them of the risks and they are ruthlessly exploited with many suffering serious harm as a result. I recommend viewing a YouTube video “Eggsploitation” to further understand what risks our young women will be exposed to if this consultation is accepted.

I am afraid that the Me,me,me and my rights, my right to have a baby at all costs, my right to produce a baby to “give” to someone else argument just doesn’t stand up. To everyone suggesting a lack of empathy towards infertile couples I say that of course I have sympathy however my greater sympathy and concern is for women who are coerced, misled and exploited and abused by the people whose only concern is to turn a profit, women and children who are trafficked and exploited. Which is what a booming surrogacy industry ends up doing.
From the United Nations statement:
“With a growing industry driven by demand, surrogacy is an area of concern for the rights and protection of the child.
There is also unease that the practice of engaging surrogate mothers in States with emerging economies to bear children for more wealthy intending parents from other States entails power imbalances and thus risks for both the children and surrogate mothers.
The report presented by the Special Rapporteur on the sale and sexual exploitation of children to the Human Rights Council noted the presence of abusive practices in both unregulated and regulated contexts and provided analysis and recommendations on implementing the prohibition of the sale of children as it relates to surrogacy.”

Many of the recommendations of the Law Commission Consultation are in direct contravention of the recommendations of the UN Special Rapporteur.

A benign government has the right to and should pass laws for the greater good.
For instance my mother was furious when seat belt laws were introduced and felt she had a right to make her own choice. She rarely wore a seatbelt throughout my childhood. Had she had a bad accident her family would have been harmed by loss of their mother. Some people could argue they don’t drive or go in cars so they don’t need these laws.
But the state imposed these laws for the greater good and many lives have been saved, injuries reduced and with it costs to the NHS. Princess Diana would probably have lived if she had worn a seatbelt that night. So laws that impose on everyone a loss of personal freedom of choice are perfectly sound when enacted for the protection of wider society.

I strongly recommend everyone to look at the consultation and respond. That said, it is long and complex, I have spent in excess of twenty five hours reading it through and researching where I needed more information to answer the 118 questions. I have also attended a public consultation event to further my understanding of the proposals.

The Nordic Model Now ten minute download will save you the effort.

Here is the link:

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/30/how-to-respond-to-the-uk-surrogacy-consultation-in-10-easy-minutes/

OP posts:
FannyCann · 04/09/2019 06:39

Itwasalovelydream I'm very sorry for what you went through and that all those efforts and risks were ultimately unsuccessful.

In the documentary film #BigFertility the intended mother of one of the surrogate babies nearly died from ovarian hyper-stimulation syndrome at the time that the embryo transfer was planned. One assumes the husband was concerned for his wife but it was striking that it fell to the surrogate and her husband to have concerns about the ethics of going ahead with the embryo transfer whilst the intended mother's life hung in the balance and she wasn't able to express her wishes. The agency insisted they went ahead with the transfer anyway. They obviously didn't want to miss out on the pay check. And apparently the doctors had no ethical concerns either.

These are the sorts of issues that crop up and the answer, at the end of the day, is that it all boils down to money.

OP posts:
OrchidInTheSun · 04/09/2019 06:40

Thanks Fanny. Smile

FannyCann · 04/09/2019 07:10

Thank you Grapefruits

It is when reading through the questions that so many complications and possibilities one hadn't even thought of crop up which make one stand back and say hang on a moment.

For instance there is a question (19) about what to do if the intended parents die before the baby is born. Which made me think of something the Law Commisioners haven't. What if one of the intended parents is diagnosed with a serious or terminal illness during the time before the baby is born?
For instance our dog was sold to a couple at eight weeks. Soon after their son was diagnosed with cancer, they found that with a sick child and weekly visits to London to the Royal Marsden it wasn't a good time to have a puppy and returned her to the breeder and we bought her at sixteen weeks.
I wonder if intending parents might not also take the view that at a time when they were struggling with a serious or life threatening illness it's not a good time to have a baby?

The consultation lawyers have tried to think of all the legal possibilities but they have given little thought to human nature. I think it is impossible to cover every eventuality and in any case a one size fits all really doesn't work as people and their circumstances differ widely.

OP posts:
GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 04/09/2019 07:48

@FannyCann I think there is little doubt that the plans are for commercial rather than altruistic surrogacy. Can't believe they are even claiming the latter.

We should all be fighting to stop the proposals. Instead we should keep our current system but with a cap on expenses.
And some kind of counselling as happens with kidney donations to make sure there is no coercion.

In my opinion altruistic surrogacy does happen. I am not sure it is necessarily the best thing for the people involved as even with the best intentions there are many things that can go wrong. But its unlikely to happen that often. Its commercial surrogacy that will cause the most damage.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 04/09/2019 07:53

It's changing the legal parentage of the baby before birth that will lead to commercial surrogacy.

Even with dodgy expense claims there is a limit to how much people will pay if the 'service provider' doesn't have to deliver the agreed 'product' at the end of the 'contract'

Selling babies is wrong.

FannyCann · 04/09/2019 07:58

Thank you StockTakerFucks and OrchidInTheSun for some top posts.

I'm sorry I can't respond more but work calls. As I say, I worded the title of the thread poorly but really wanted to stimulate civil discussion of the Law Commission proposals and raise awareness of their plans.

OP posts:
FannyCann · 04/09/2019 08:04

@Teddypicker1 I'm glad you watched that programme. I thought I knew what to expect but I was floored by the reality of it all. It really upset me, the casual heartlessness was so much worse than I had expected, not to mention the poor woman being coerced into committing fraud or perjury whatever the crime was for the French couple whilst she was still fresh out of an LSCS. With all those lawyers and contracts one might at least have thought the surrogate would be protected from that.

OP posts:
FannyCann · 04/09/2019 08:14

Thanks @Douberry Smile

OP posts:
NoCauseRebel · 04/09/2019 10:05

I think that even with altruistic surrogacy though there is often a feeling of “should” rather than because the individual really wants to carry a baby for someone else. Even without pressure I think that e.g. siblings who are close would feel that they should be the one to give the sibling a chance of being a parent. Not, I’m afraid to say, dissimilar to live organ donation where often a family member donates an organ but the expectation often is that all family should be tested, and that if that organ fails it will then fall to the next one to donate and so on.

It’s not conscious pressure but it is IMO something people often feel they should do.

Teddypicker1 · 04/09/2019 10:41

@FannyCann

I was shocked by the health implications to the surrogate. We're led to belive its just a natural process like carrying your own child. But the documentary highlights that you're more at risk of health complications if its not genetically your egg. The drugs the surrogates are given to get them pregnant with someone else's egg have long term health implications and after the surrogate in the documentary nearly died from hypremesis she was told she will likely end up having heart problems later in life.

It's not just carrying a baby for 9 months. A natural pregnancy is hard enough on your body. A chemically induced pregnancy has massive health risks that no one should be imposing on another human.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 04/09/2019 10:42

@NoCauseRebel apparently if you are a match for a kidney but don't want to do it they will just give you a letter saying that you aren't.

They could do the same with surrogacy. A requirement for a health check that you could 'fail' if you told the people screening you didn't really want to do it.

NoCauseRebel · 04/09/2019 12:04

apparently if you are a match for a kidney but don't want to do it they will just give you a letter saying that you aren't. which is clear proof that there is obviously a sense of pressure and coercion involved.

MonsteraCheeseplant · 04/09/2019 12:44

Interesting discussion.

Firstly. It is especially interesting to see the tendency for certain invested parties (infertile women) to shout down and exclude the perspectives and opinions of the kind of women they would need to use in the event of surrogacy. No. Everyone gets to contribute to the discussion. That is fair. Just because you sit one side of the fence, doesn't mean you can exclude others. You would be much better off engaging with the discussion points than telling your "opponents" to fuck off.

Secondly, that documentary recommended above is enlightening and I also advise people watch it. The woman is treated as property. The way she was treated is not the exception, it is the rule. Don't kid yourselves that it is rainbows and unicorns.

While commercial surrogacy is generally agreed here to be exploitative, I struggle to see how so called "altruistic" surrogacy wouldn't be also. Sadly I see a lot of women subjugated in family dynamics where it would hardly be their choice. Plus if you consider learning difficulties, proclivities to health problems and last but not least the trauma to mother and baby of separation...I just don't see how this could ever be ethical.

Like the happy hooker, ethical porn etc , the existence of a vanishingly tiny minority does not provide sufficient rationale to allow the substantial risk of abuse which is the rule.

I'm sorry but just because you want something a lot, doesn't mean you can do anything to get it. Remember that in the UK, plenty of people die waiting for a transplant because they are not entitled to buy them. That's an actual life or death situation and I bet there would be plenty of willing volunteers to sell their kidney for a price. So they are protected. I think that is what we need to do for women too.

Toomanyradishes · 04/09/2019 12:52

My sister tried to be a surrogate for me (treatment didnt work) she recieved no financial compensation and is actually in a far better financial position than i am and far wealthier. There was no farming or selling or whatever other terms people are putting it as

MonsteraCheeseplant · 04/09/2019 12:53

What about the other considerations? The risk to her health, the trauma to the baby from separation?

Alsohuman · 04/09/2019 13:12

I watched The Big Fertility yesterday honestly expecting it to change my mind. I was aghast. Initially I felt sympathy with the woman. Her account of her first surrogate pregnancy was awful - not because of the surrogacy itself but the awful mishandling of the legalities surrounding it. My mind would have been changed if she’d stopped at that point.

But no. Despite the nightmare of the first time, she decided to do it again. And predictably that was horrendously complicated too. Apparently no lesson was learnt so she went for a third surrogacy and was apparently astonished when it wasn’t plain sailing.

The film made a compelling case for tight regulation and cast iron legislation. It was also an illustration of where greed can lead you.

NoCauseRebel · 04/09/2019 13:39

Where is this big fertility documentary?

MonsteraCheeseplant · 04/09/2019 13:51

You can watch it on Amazon Prime.

I'm pretty grossed out how you watched it and saw fit to call the fucking surrogate greedy. Never mind the two sets of parents who were total shits to her. Never mind the corporations who left her in the shit and raked in the cash. You find blame at her door. Sick.

Yarval · 04/09/2019 14:04

I don’t see the problem with any sort of surrogacy. My best friend loves being pregnant. She carries babies well and pops them out like tic tacs. It is what it is. Like she says, biology has given her that gift. It’s the only thing in life that she personally considers her talent to be. When we thought we couldn’t have kids she was going to be my surrogate. She is the most wonderful person. No problem in my eyes her being able to give others a baby. If I’d wanted to give her £30k for that then why shouldn’t I? My money. Her body. We love each other. There is absolutely no malice involved anywhere. I don’t see why other people think they get the right to tell other people what they can or can’t do with their reproductive organs.

IHaveBrilloHair · 04/09/2019 14:44

So much thought for the baby/child/adult in your post Hmm