To say there is no such thing as "altruistic" surrogacy?

[FannyCann]

To say there is no such thing as altruistic surrogacy and that this fiction is a massive state sponsored fraud?

The Law Commission has a Consultation to review surrogacy laws in the UK and you have til 11th October to respond.

There are 16 questions relating to payment, but they find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Admit women are paid for this “service” and recommend full commercial surrogacy puts the UK on a par with countries such as Uganda, the Ukraine and Russia. The UN Special Rapporteur links commercial surrogacy with the sale of babies. So of course we don’t do that in the UK. Oh no. We have “altruistic” surrogacy here. Surrogates are merely recompensed for expenses incurred as a result of the pregnancy, plus the odd “gift”.
So altruistic that from the Law Commioners own research into payments surrogates have been receiving, the median payment was £14,795.54 and 9.61% were paid more than £20,000.

Payments were claimed for things like takeaway meals and cleaners.

This is clearly State Sponsored Fraud. I challenge anyone to produce receipts to prove their pregnancy cost them £20,000

I also suggest that this puts surrogates in a tricky situation should HMRC or the benefits office ever take an interest in the origin of that £20k. It is very wrong for the law to encourage this fraud.

I ask you to look at the background and if you want to have a say into whether commercial surrogacy should be allowed in the UK please respond.

Here is a link to the Nordic Model Now template which you can download and use to respond in ten minutes.

https://nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/30/how-to-respond-to-the-uk-surrogacy-consultation-in-10-easy-minutes//_

You can find moe background and discussion of the Consultation on this thread.

Building families through surrogacy: A new Law - Consultation
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3649812-building-families-through-surrogacy-a-new-law-consultation

YANBU

If their only chance is this and the child is loved and wanted and all concerned are in agreement then so be it.

"All concerned" apart from the most important person of all, the innocent baby who did not ask to be born with the express intent to being torn away from its mother to satisfy the desires of adults.

Having a baby is not a right. Not even close.

I am more concerned about people getting boob jobs and other cosmetic work on the nhs

You're more concerned about cosmetic surgery than the commodification of women and babies?

FannyCann this is your thread and your ideas, it’s not too much to ask you to offer some kind of reasonable support for them, otherwise we might as well all be grunting and throwing feces at each other. I notice that you have not engaged with my other question either on where you stand on women’s bodily autonomy in general. Are you at all interested in engaging with arguments or is this just a thread where you vent?

I'd be a surrogate for my brother
Without payment and without a second thought. Best of both worlds.

Do women have the right to have a baby? Of course. Do they have the right to sell that baby? No, because if they cannot or do not want to wish to care for that baby themselves, it is up to the State to find a suitable carer.

You - and all the other surrogacy advocates @Booboostwo - keep overlooking the rights of the child

I notice that you have not engaged with my other question either on where you stand on women’s bodily autonomy in general. Are you at all interested in engaging with arguments or is this just a thread where you vent?

I'm not FannyCann but if you'd read the thread you'd know that these arguments have already been dealt with several times.

To sum up:

a) Bodily autonomy - for men or women - is not absolute. Laws forbid us from doing all sorts of things with our bodies, such as selling our organs.
b) Surrogacy isn't just about the woman, but about the tiny innocent baby created in order to be taken away at birth from the only mother it has ever known. Many of us consider that to be a form of cruelty which simply cannot be justified.

I was going to respond earlier Booboostwo but I decided to watch the Jennifer Lahl documentary #BigFertility - it's all about the money on Amazon prime first. I can't remember the last time I watched something that left me in floods of tears. The cruelty, dishonesty and abusive exploitation that the poor young woman featured was subjected to is beyond belief. The total lack of ethics at any stage of the process from everyone involved is completely shocking.

So go away and watch that and then tell me it's all about personal freedom.

Maybe fertile women shouldn't decide what infertile women discuss or plan. You clearly miss empathy.

My friend suggested to be my surrogate. I didn't ask for it, I didn't take her up on it but real altruistic surrogacy exists and its none of your damn business. All reasons that you have against it can be way layed. You are just waging a war on infertility and their options. You said you wouldn't want your dd to be a surrogate. She also could be the infertile one. Have you thought about that? It's not "just adopt" it's severe depression. Would you really have a problem if her sister or best friend carries her baby? Why would you take away her happiness because you have an opinion? Why can't you just butt out. You can be against it without changing the law you know. I am against abortion, but I wouldn't want to change the law because I can't decide what another woman does with her body. Who are you that you feel that you get to decide what another woman does with her body? That's just sick in my opinion.

The birth mother thing is stupid. Most people are totally happy to give a newborn kid to it's father, which it doesn't know either. So you could equally give it to it's genetic mother.

The birth mother thing is stupid. Most people are totally happy to give a newborn kid to it's father, which it doesn't know either. So you could equally give it to it's genetic mother.

Who are the 'most people' who would happily give their newborn to it's father to live with, away from them?

More tears and diversions, still no arguments FannyCann.

The giving of an unwanted to newborn to their biological father would be the best option in a bad situation. The separation of a mother and a newnorn is never good.

“Maybe fertile women shouldn't decide what infertile women discuss or plan”.

These issues affect many other groups of people and are a matter of public interest.

Also, don’t make assumptions about other posters’ situations.

Maybe fertile women shouldn't decide what infertile women discuss or plan

that's a bit stupid as when you consider getting a child via surrogacy you need a woman who is fertile...

I am against commercial surrogacy but my dearest friend - who is like a sister to me - is infertile. I have health problems which means I probably couldn’t safely carry another pregnancy and give birth. If this wasn’t the case, I’d seriously consider using her eggs and being a surrogate. I would have considered the most important person (the baby) as I trust my friend would give the child a loving, stable and financially secure life.

Why does a surrogate need to be fertile? Many surrogate pregnancies use embryos from the couple who are the intended parents.

@FannyCann
Pretty sure you've never experienced infertility.....if you had you wouldn't have such a problem with surrogacy

I've never experienced DV or FGM but I still have a massive issue with them.
What a stupid argument.

How come some of these people stop being desperate for a baby when the baby has disabilities? Or when they pick a baby and leave their twin behind? Or when they ask for life support to be turned off? Or when they simply fuck off and leave the child stateless and abandoned in a facility?
Or when no checks are made and babies go to parents that have convictions for violence and even child abuse?

Once you start using babies as products, that's what happens. People expect a good product and return it and ask for a refund for being "faulty".

It's a baby not a bloody smart TV.

Maybe fertile women shouldn't decide what infertile women discuss or plan.

That's an absolutely ludicrous argument. Firstly, you have no idea whatsoever if those of us posting here are fertile, infertile (the two are not binary in any case), parents, childfree, or even if we are women at all.

Secondly, and more importantly, we don't only allow those who would directly benefit from something to have a say in it. That's not how society or democracy works.

You can be against it without changing the law you know. I am against abortion, but I wouldn't want to change the law because I can't decide what another woman does with her body.

But the law was already changed. It used to be illegal for a woman to have an abortion. Now it isn't, because the laws were changed. And it wasn't only women of childbearing age who were allowed to decide. We saw the same thing only a few years ago in Ireland.

And if you think that you "can't decide what another woman does with her body" presumably you're against laws which forbid women (and men) from selling their kidneys or injecting heroin?

YABU, walk in someone else shoes u were very lucky to have your children naturally at your age. What if your daughter suffers multiple miscarriages would you deny her a surrogate and the chance to have her own child or will you tell her to farm puppies instead hmmm.

Why does a surrogate need to be fertile?

Why does a woman who gestates and gives birth to a baby need to be fertile? No clue. Can't think of a single reason. You've got me stumped.

Oh and I thought you'd left this discussion a few days ago? You came back to offer this pearl of wisdom?

Maybe fertile women shouldn't decide what infertile women discuss or plan. You clearly miss empathy.

Way to dehumaise the surrogate and the baby. They are also involved in this "plan".

Is it not also really insulting to infertile women to suggest that they all become corrupted by their experiences to the point in which they no longer care about whether its wrong to exploit someone in a way that people with children cant possibly understand?

I mean surely both people with and without children have different opinions.

The irony of you calling arguments about the ethics of surrogacy emotional booboostoo! Most of the pro-surrogacy arguments hinge on not knowing the pain of infertility and what a beautiful and loving thing it is to create a human being for another person.

I'd call those emotional arguments.

None of them are about the child's rights. They are all about what the adults want.

Altruistic surrogacy does exist.

I am a uk based altruistic gestational surrogate (I gave birth to a surrogate baby 2 weeks ago). For context, I am post-graduate level educated and earn a good income. I have two of my own children, conceived naturally, so had experienced pregnancy and childbirth before.

My motivations for undertaking surrogacy were entirely altruistic - to allow close friends the chance to have a much loved child, something which was not biologically possible for them. This was my informed, educated choice, made when fully armed with all the relevant facts and risks. As such I firmly believe that altruistic surrogacy can and does exist.

Myself, my partner and my IPs had independent legal advice, medical advice (encompassing both physical and mental health considerations and risks) and thorough counselling prior to beginning treatment. These steps are proposed as mandatory by the Law Commission to ensure all parties are appropriately informed and can make informed decisions. No pregnancy is risk free and it is important that all parties understand the risks, and also cover the possible eventualities if things do not go as planned (miscarriage, disability, to name but a few). It was then my decision - along with my partner and family - as to how to proceed.

As to payment. My expenses are based on reasonable costs of pregnancy (maternity clothes/toiletries, travel to clinic/hospital appointments etc) plus loss of earnings for myself and my partner as we have both taken leave to recover from the birth. The loss of earnings is by far the biggest element of my expenses. Although the total figure might seem alarming, I have a spreadsheet detailing how every penny has been spent, and I am not at all better off as a result of surrogacy. To leap from the size of the payment to the assumption that the surrogate has made a profit ignores the fact that it is illegal to pay for surrogacy in the Uk - and the courts will consider this when granting the parental order.

The baby - once he was born - went straight to his mother for skin to skin contact. He is absolutely thriving. We saw the parents 2-3 times a week during the pregnancy so he has been familiar with his parents’ voices throughout. He’s an extremely happy and well-settled baby and I am delighted to see my friends as a family.

I challenge any person to view him - or any of us - as in any way traumatised by the process. It has brought so much love and happiness to all of our families. Altruistic surrogacy is rare but it does exist and I believe it can be extremely rewarding and positive for all involved.