Should it be 50/50 by law?

[Iamnotagoddess]

In Germany apparently it’s both (separated) parents equal responsibility to ferry the children to and from the NRP house to the RP house. To me this actually seems pretty fair.

I separated from both my kids dads and one was local and did all the ferrying and the other is about 20 miles away and I always offer to meet halfway.

DH kids live a 5 hour journey (round trip) away and we always try to ask his ex to meet about 30 mins away from her to shorten the journey a bit, but she won’t, and it always ends in a row (between them) and is stressful.

I did the trip last time and (unbeknown to me) she said to DH she could meet me nearby her house but shortening the journey for me but wouldn’t give a time. She then had a huge go at DH saying I should be “fucking grateful” that she was “helping me out” and if I didn’t like it I could do the whole journey and stuff me basically (I ended up doing the whole journey and getting stuck in holiday traffic and it took me 7 hours). I do this journey a lot but her attitude has made me feel reluctant to do it anymore.

AIBU to think within reason both parents should be physically and financially responsible for the children having access to a relationship with the other parent, and it should be a given and part of being a separated parent?

I have a Finnish friend..

Most mothers in Finland work though, a SAHM is a very rare creature, so she probably had her own income as well.

She should be doing the driving or at minimum 50/50. She moved.

The cost of housing is a serious problem in the UK so the 30km rule wouldn't work as it would be impossible for some to support kids in certain areas on a single income. NRP don't usually have the school catchment pressure but as a RP my kids need to be able to travel to school on their own.

It depends on the famliy as to what is fair. If you add up the driving the resident parent does every week of the children that might well be a lot more than the non resident's drive to collect the children even if that is 2 hours one way!

Lots of parents stay close. My children's father lives about 5 mnutes drive away [ in an unmortgaged house bought with the divorce settlement I had to give hm !]

I don’t know about this particular issue but German family law is similar to the UK ie there is often no legal certainty as it’s normally decided on a case by case basis (although joint custody is usually given to active parents). There are examples of standard decisions but usually these are only made where parents can’t agree, and the circumstances of both parents taken into account.

If you add up the driving the resident parent does every week of the children

Whats that to do with the nrp though? The rp might have chosen a school a drive away over one in walking distance. They might enroll their child in a different activity every night. The nrp might not have a say in any of this so why should they suffer for decisions the rp makes alone?

Obviously not all circumstances are like this but some are.

The laws in Germany ( my home country. I'm German ) surrounding residency, responsibility and maintenance are complex and expensive. Hence the birth rate dropping drastically over recent years.
One of the things is that the none resident parent has to have the children one weekend in two and half of the school holidays, if and when it is practical. The resident parent has no say in the matter ( unless it can be proven that it would place the children in danger ) None compliance by the resident parent has repercussions which are strictly enforced, as is with the none resident parent.
It sounds great to a British parent that the none resident parent is responsible for the collection and return, but it is only enforced if it is practical to do so. The none resident parent can move as far away as they wish.

I don't think there can be a one-size-fits all solution to this issue and I'd be surprised if the German 'law' is utterly rigid rather than a starting point of assumed fairness from which other things can be taken into account. As posters have pointed out, there is scope for abuse of either system - a high-earning NRP could move far away to force additional costs onto the RP, an abusive partner could use proximity to continue abusing their family etc, so it's important to look at the facts of each case in determining what is fair, realistic and appropriate in each case.

Some parents do a great job of sharing out the travelling, some need the courts to intervene and I think that it's probably fairer to leave it to the individuals involved as much as possible and only rely on the courts or legal rulings when the alternatives have been exhausted and no solution has been found.

Unless it is shared custody the NRP should do it. RP does what 80/90% of the ferrying around already and the day to day care and you begrudge her the few days a month to have to herself, geez.

If you have children with someone who comes from far away then don't be surprised if they move back after the split.

@Dutch1e
I have lots of questions about how the Dutch handle this topic and what would be considered fair, if you could answer I would be really grateful! My Dutch ex husband left the UK to return to the Netherlands when I was pregnant with our only child. He pays no maintenance, stating his income is low and he cannot afford to. He visits sporadically - a couple of times a year and has stated that his travel costs from the Netherlands to the UK should be deducted from any maintenance payable.
Is it the case then that a Dutch view would be that he should have remained in the UK to facilitate contact with his child, and since he has chosen to return to the Netherlands, the cost of his travel is his responsibility?
He is very keen to insist on his rights as co parent, but has not contributed financially, emotionally or practically. I have done everything and paid for everything.
I find a cultural barrier trying to put across my point of view - that he has and continues to not meet his responsibilities to our child.
Of course, 2 flights per annum from the Netherlands to the UK are a minimal cost compared to the cost of childcare (obviously I need to work!) and all the other costs of raising a child.
Would the Dutch expect a non resident parent (So not the 50/50 they normally do) to contribute to child care costs?
I am bitter that he contributes nothing, shows little interest but considers and refers to himself as co parent...

I moved away from my ex but I refuse to take the children to him and make him get them, the simple reason being that he very rarely gives me money for them and when he does its very little. He does however drive a big, expensive car and manages to visit Costa every day. Its my one small victory that at least he's paying to come and get them 😁

@changedtempforprivacy I don't know much about how the specifics of how the Dutch handle cross-border access obligations, I'm sorry.

I do know that in the EU you can file for maintenance and/or a parenting agreement in either country of residence (in this case the UK or NL) and it will be upheld. In your position I would probably use the Dutch system; it's heavily weighted in favour of the child and demands that a reasonable parenting agreement (including a fair division of costs) either be drawn up by the parents or decided by the courts if the parents are unable to agree.

It will be in your ex's best interests to work with you on this agreement - the family courts take a very dim view of parents who are seen to have skipped out on their responsibilities toward their kids.

Carpetb, interseting to see how Germany enforces the 50% residence. For example my children's father in over 10 years has chosen to have them just about no nights a year never mind weekend. He might see two of them for 2 hours but not more than that and not consistently. As a full time working mother it would have been lovely to have 50% contact forced on him!

@Dutch1e - thank you. If it ever goes to court, then I will use the Dutch system. Fortunately there is no court order in place, and I am happy with that, as my ex husband is very keen to insist on his rights, but less keen to face up to his responsibilities. He lives on benefits and uses this as an excuse not to pay maintenance, when he is sporadically in work he says the job didn't last long and uses that as a reason not to pay. Frankly I think when my daughter is an adult and realises her father prioritised spending £7 a day on cigarettes to paying the £7 a week maintenance his lawyer has suggested , it will tell her all she needs to know about why I left him. Luckily I am a well qualified professional and have always been financially prudent, which my ex husband relies upon.
I don't bad mouth him but I have decided to be honest. Last weekend we went away to the beach, stayed in a hotel, went to the theatre etc. My daughter said she wished her daddy was on the holiday with us. I said to her that if her daddy was living with us we wouldn't be able to afford this holiday as he would have spent all of mummy's money on things for himself instead of a holiday for her. It's harsh, but it is the truth, and friends have advised me to let her know the truth about him gently but from a young age - she is 4

Would the Dutch expect a non resident parent (So not the 50/50 they normally do) to contribute to child care costs

Sorry, missed this one. Yes, although it would be in the lump of child maintenance or spousal support. Alimony is still very much a thing here as the Netherlands has a high rate of mums working part-time and it's widely acknowledged that she has sacrificed her earning potential to raise their shared children.

So if the parents don't do a 50/50 split of having the kids (eg in my BILs case he and his ex have the kids half the week each and alternate weekends), freeing everyone up to work full-time then the non-resident parent has to ensure that the other parent's standard of living doesn't suffer. Still using my BILs example, there are sometimes extra arrangements. Even though he and his ex do 50/50 co-parenting he chipped in a significant chunk towards her buying a house within cycling distance of his, so their kids could stay consistent with their school and neighbourhood friends. This isn't all that unusual, the local culture is that parents commit to their kids no matter what happens in the marriage.

Bear in mind this is all how it is on paper. There are deadbeats everywhere and real-world justice can be patchy, ineffective, and slow.

@Xenia - we have met, I know you from.the orange. I'm the lady you very kindly sent the times supplement to with a wedding is been to at the rcj in 2014.
Your children are lucky to have you there for them consistently, and that you have provided for them. It's demonstrated in how well they have all done.
How do they cope emotionally with his lack of involvement? How do you explain it to them? Are you just matter of fact or do you sugar coat it?

Thank you. The older children at the time wanted me to divorce him as he was so nasty to them so that has never been hard. The youngest two were a bit too young to know what was going on and since then I certainly encourage them to see him (and paid for trains for all 5 to visit his parents everal times a year hundreds of miles away as it was not his parents' fault we divorced). We let those two form their own views of him. They can see comparing him with other parents who are divorced that he does a lot less (and pays just about nothing to those at university now - other than the occasional mobile phone) . Even the youngest are at university stage now so lack of practical help from him doesn't really matter now.

he has arranged his contact (usually 2 hours on a weekend afternoon when they were younger) with the twins directly since one was able to use email from age 6 ( very capable little boy so that worked out fine as their father chose not to speak to me).

@Dutch1e - thank you. Yes there are deadbeats everywhere! I think another issue is that my ex husband's best friend - a highly respected harvard educated dutch academic - has normalised this financial abuse. The best friend's wife left when the 2chikdten of their marriage were toddler's, he stated In the family home in the affluent school catchment area so had the kids 60% of the time, meaning the court ordered his lower earning wife to pay him maintenance at a level to support the kids previous living standard.
The best friend then had a child with an American, child born in Amsterdam, as he gave her permission to return to the states when he could have insisted she remain in the Netherlands, he considers he had treated her well, and shouldn't have to pay child support as she doesn't need it as she has an academic career and a supportive and wealthy family - who are picking up the tab for raising his child. He is still battling her in court to force her to send the child to him in the Netherlands for half of all school holidays, . When I said to him she would be more amenable to that request if he paid meaningful child support so the burden was not all in her to provide everything, his response was she should be grateful he didn't destroy her career by forcing her to remain in Amsterdam until.the child was 18 (She left when he was 2), and that she earns enough not to need his money..
So deadbeat dads are of all social classes, but in my ex husband's peers the men really do want all the rights but not to have to make any financial sacrifices! Quite the opposite from my (non british) immigrant upbringing where financially providing for your child is the father's number one priority and fathers who did not provide for their children would be socially condemned as failing their responsibilities

Thanks Xenia - yes I take the same attitude with her grandparents and facilitate contact with them, as she has a right to know them and they shouldn't suffer for their son's failings.
2 hours a week with your children really doesn't show much interest or commitment, particularly when you all live nearby, so yes, it does speak for itself..

No, it shouldn’t. I’m on the other side of this: separated and then divorced my cheating, abusive husband and father of my 2 DC. He moved progressively further away, until he now lives 200 miles from the DC. We’re still in the former marital home that I now own. He kicks off because I won’t do half the driving. My take on it is that:

• it’s hardly unexpected that moving 200 miles away from your children is going to entail associated costs and inconvenience. If you don’t want it, don’t do it.

• it was his choice to move away, not mine. Without any consultation, or even a heads-up, reduced contact by over half and left me to sort out and pay for the childcare to facilitate that choice.

• I run around 12 nights out of 14 to get the children to school, clubs, medical appointments etc ad infinitum. Because I am a parent and that is what parents do. Except he has opted out of this aspect of parenting. So arranging and paying for his own contact with his own children is hardly an enormous, disproportionate sacrifice.

@Freddiefox Why should NRP pay 50% of the utilities to the RP?

I never quite get this. Regardless if they have children, they'd have their own utilities to pay for. Granted they will increase having children at home however it should only b 50% of the addition (no idea how you'd work this out though).

All the other things you've listed should be covered by the maintenance payment.

As for the driving, I do personally think it should be 50/50 however it rarely is. My DP always drives to collect the kids. He has moved away (40 miles from kids) so it certainly adds up. Especially for weekends when the kids have hobbies which need to go back and forth.

@KatharinaRosalie.

She lives in the UK.

Agree that the parent who moved away should shoulder the burden (unless exceptional circumstances like DV of course).

Also, it’s all good and well saying “well I do the school run, clubs, bulk of the parenting, etc” but wouldn’t you be doing that anyway if you were still together and a SAHM with him as the main earner? It’s unrealistic to expect NRP to provide the majority of financial support and 50/50 parenting. People can’t split themselves in two!

Mellowbird85 - there aren't many parents who could run a household on the child maintenance they receive - they wouldn't be a stay at home parent, they would need to be out at work! Child maintenance in the UK is 12% gross weekly income for 1 child,16% for 2 children and 19% for 3 children. You can't be a stay at home parent on that.
I know lots of lone parents claim benefits - but that is if you unable to work...very different from being a stay at home parent funded by your spouse..

The reality in most lone parent situations it is the mother as the resident parent doing the majority of the childcare and providing the majority of the financial support for the children, and if the NRP does decide to do 50/50 care, they can claim maintenance is not payable,leaving the RP picking up the costs of clothing, school lunches, activities etc. The posts on mumsnet indicate this is the reality for the vast majority of seperated/ lone parents in the UK