Why is it okay to criticise some things that are bad for the planet and not others?

[perhapsimight]

So it's okay to say that people should stop washing towels every day or stop flying in private jets but it seems that when it comes to something as massively damaging as eating meat it is 'everyone should respect each other's choices'

I dont know. You are right but I think that if people are presented with a massive list though it looks unmanageable. If people feel like they still have choices and can take one step at a time they are more likely to make changes. For example not eating meat is difficult for some people if they have been brought up that way, starting the change by saying try two veggie meals a week is a bit less daunting and more realistic.

But the towels thread this morning did shock me, mumsnet has made me realise I am officially a minger

It's ok to tell people to stop doing things that damage the environment...that I don't do.

It's not ok to tell people to stop doing things that I do do.

I want to help the environment, so long as it doesn't effect me or alter my lifestyle. Other people need to alter their lifestyle.

Also, there are too many cars on the road, which means I often get stuck in traffic in my car.

HTH

Every time I question the apparent need for us to manufacture everything by sending stuff all over the EU and the world in trucks, boats and planes I get told it's essential and I "don't understand".

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

This is another example of how commenting on the climate change emergency is only allowed in the context of some things like single use plastics and not others. YANBU OP.

I think the meat thing is because not everyone can stop eating meat/diary/eggs for health reasons eg, I imagine if you had a nut allergy plus a gluten allergy you'd have a very restricted diet...the other 2 are lifestyle choices.

I also feel sympathy for people whose families are spread out across the world and have to take long haul flights to visit elderly relatives.

I'm also a bit at people who buy the fancy environmently friendly version of everything...fair enough if you don't already own the thing but it's just virtue signalling to go buy a metal tiffin box for your lunch If like me you already have a wide variety of tupperware and kids plastic lunchboxes in the cupboard.

There is two sides to the meat eating debate though. A lot of people have noted that the agriculture involved in veganism / plant based diets is also damaging and but replacements like Almond Milk are very bad environmentally.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/veganism-may-be-unsustainable-in-the-future-according-to-new-research-2018-8

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html%3Famp

I'm not sure why people are expecting perfection. It's this that puts people off even making changes in some cases, cause if they recycle and try and reduce their carbon footprint they get called a hypocrite for still eating meat. So they give up.

Can we aim for progress instead?

Totally agree. Nearly every thread on here, someone will say ‘think of the enviroment’ I’m getting sick of it. Unless you have no kids, don’t drive etc then you have no right. I’ll not stop
Eating meat either. Soya and avocados are just as bad imo

YANBU. Also some people (emphasis on some!) need to think through that if we all stop eating beef we are going to have to give up milk too - the dairy industry props up the beef industry, plus vice-versa. And dairy cows fart too

I find this sums up how I feel about it.

I agree OP. The towel thread is ridiculous as is the hatred directed at some for flying in a private jet. I've yet to meet a perfect person.

Maybe I move in different circles but I see people commenting on how meat eating is ruining the planet quite often. Also fishing. Presumably if I kept and killed my own hens that would be ok, I don't know (and I'm not going to try).

Argghhhh!

Threads like these make me want to dump chemicals into the sea.

Why do we have to criticise anyone for any of it?

I think some people are suffering from a 'God shaped hole' in their lives because of the secularisation of society. They are filling it with global warming, fad diets, spending all day in the gym etc. And preaching their gospels to anyone who'll listen.

Personally I'd rather be burned as a witch. Much more straightforward.

I'm surprised people don't discuss fuel enough.

Nuclear is cleaner and safer, but people don't want it..

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter I can get behind that.

I went dairy free for a while due to DD2’s allergies, and really struggled. I would struggle with completely vegan. I do what I can though, my milk comes from the milk man in glass bottles from local dairy’s. Meat comes from the butcher at the end of the road who sources from local farms. We rarely eat cheese. All our fruit and veg is British grown. So I’m trying to keep our food miles as low as I can, which I feel is the best I can do.
Vegan diet isn’t perfect either, there’s often a lot of air miles involved, and meat alternatives are highly processed.
I’m trying to go plastic free at home, and recycle everything I can. We use “who gives a crap” loo roll. We are switching to solid soaps. I only use reusable cloths, no kitchen towel etc any more. We used cloth nappies with both DD’s as much as possible (frequent hospital stays necessitated more disposables than I’d like with DD2). When I have finished my masters degree I’ll be looking for a job closer to home so I’m not commuting to work in a car. I just wish the LA had given my daughter the school we can walk to instead of one that’s a drive away.
As a PP said, we need everyone doing what they can. It’s still difficult when manufacturers still cover everything in plastic.

Honestly? Because this is just an Internet forum with no expertise or balance. Look in the rest of the world and it’s easy to find criticism of everything bad for the environment

I think we need to stop judging and berating each other. It doesn't work. We need to focus on the positives and be "can do". I know that sounds cliche but it really is the best way forward.

So instead of sniping at your neighbours for having the wrong sort of car, you could set up a community litter pick. Instead of pissing about on Mumsnet telling people they are selfish for having children, do some charity fundraising to invest in some sort of innovative environmental project. There are all sorts of positive things we can do. Encourage others to join you. Show them the way, rather than nit picking about their lifestyle choices.

I think basically it's realistic to encourage everyone to make small changes but unrealistic to expect massive changes.

So maybe we could all do a bit less washing each week, eat a bit less meat and be aware of alternatives to flying. But becoming vegetarian or doing all your washing by hand or never flying again would be a big change for most people.

Because humans are omnivores and that's not comparable to the useless waste that are plastic straws.

I eat a very low meat diet which is largely vegetarian. I'd have a lot more time for people wanting to discuss farming practices and ethical consumption as part of a broader debate on the environment than have the same old sub group of smug vegetarians/vegans act like the whole world would be saved if everyone converted to their diet.

E.g. Vegan 1 I know jets off to these spiritual retreat resort places in South East Asia. I've never flown long haul in my life. I don't bitch at her for her flying habits and yet she inundates everyone on social media with why veganism saves the planet.

The problem with environmental debates is that it only takes a few smug people to act like their choices are infinitely better than anyone else's

What people eat it very personal. We have to eat to survive. The same cannot be said for driving or flying. I also do not think we are ‘natural’ vegans. Humans have evolved eating both plants, meat and things like eggs.

When people start policing other people’s diets it gets personal. Only this morning there was a thread with a vegan calling meat eaters ‘ignorant’ and accusing people who claimed they felt unwell on a vegan diet ‘liars’, completely unprovoked by the way.

Same with the whole ‘having kids’ thing. You start telling people they should abort if they already have two kids and are pregnant or shouldn’t have had the kids they already have and your on dangerous territory.

I would love to see a COMPLETE carbon footprint of something like veggie "chicken" and an actual chicken.

The amount of staff that goes into the veggie versions is sometimes staggering and makes you wonder if it is indeed any better. All these stabilisers and preservatives are made and ship from somewhere too.
So let's say it has 9 ingredients, that's 7-9 factories somewhere growing them, making them and processing them, then shipping them to the big one to process it all into that "chicken".
Chicken feed is made somewhere too.

And let's not forget packaging. If you buy from butchers you don't get it in a vacuum plastic packaging.

Foods should have TOTAL footprint data available. Especially if they ride on the claim that they are better for environment than others.

With the Rainforest burning to a crisp and us having about 20 years left, it's pissing into the wind now.

Totally agree. Nearly every thread on here, someone will say ‘think of the enviroment’ I’m getting sick of it. Unless you have no kids, don’t drive etc then you have no right. I’ll not stop
Eating meat either. Soya and avocados are just as bad imo

I hate views like this! It’s the laziest get-out. I’m not going to think about this or make any change to MY lifestyle because YOU’VE got kids/drive/eat meat etc.

As a PP has said, it is utterly useless to have one person or ten people or twenty people living perfectly. We need a billion people doing it imperfectly. If a billion of us made one fewer journey in our cars per week, that would have far more of an impact than 10 of us giving up our cars. If a billion of us had one meat-free day a week, that would have far more of an impact than 10 of us going vegan. I don’t understand why there has to be such a blame culture around this issue.

Because as a general rule people do not want to be inconvenienced, have to sacrifice something they like or enjoy, or feel criticised.

The feeling of being criticised is one of the biggest blockers to sensible discussion - the classic vegan threads show this perfectly. Omnivores feel judged so "attack" and try to show how veganism is bad for the planet, not healthy etc etc

Vegans "attack" back instead of facing up to the fact that eating loads of processed vegan alternatives, soy, almond milk etc is ultimately not better than eating a omnivorous diet.

For the environments sake, the best diet would be eating only locally sourced meat and veg. Very few people do this though, and because people hate to feel judged, it makes people respond aggressively rather than having a sensible conversation and maybe a few minutes of reflection spent on debating if you can make changes would be more productive than desperately trying to poke holes in someone elses life.

I don’t drive, have never flown in a plane, do my best to reduce my families (as in me, DH and DC’s) fuel emissions from our home. Rarely buy single use plastic anything and have an allotment with my Mum and Step Dad where we grow as many veggies and fruits that we can, rarely buy new clothes as second hand/charity shop does fine for me, DH only buys new for work clothes when absolutely necessary but he sews quite well so tries to repair them himself before buying new - but I we do eat meat. Does that mean I’m not doing my part? I find it highly contentious and a bit goady to always refer back to eating meat when I am more environmentally friendly than most of my Vegan/Vegetarian friends - I don’t comment on their lifestyle but they often comment on my being omnivorous as detrimental to the planet - considering that we only have a certain amount of farmable land and that land needs rotation and rest so cannot sustain every human being as a vegetarian should one day the world magically change. Not to mention it would drive up the use of pesticides and those vegetables would have to still be transported.

FWIW I do two meals per week with meat and the rest is usually veggie focussed but I still enjoy occasionally eating steak or a roast 🤷🏻‍♀️

Were going to have massive changes forced on us one way or another rather sooner than we thought, I personally prefer to anticipate and feel I have a bit of control over the process, it helps me feel less hopeless, more mentally prepared, but then personality wise I'm relatively cautious, a saver rather than a spender.
I do now share my choices, if it comes up in conversation, I'm hoping to nudge a few people.
I don't think people are automatically hypocrites unless they are 100% green, saying one thing and doing the opposite is hypocritical, I'd love to see some Hollywood types announce they plan to give up filming to stay in the one place and do local theatre! However, changing your behaviour from less eco conscious to more eco conscious does not make you a hypocrite, anymore than an ex smoker advising others to give up is a hypocrite IMO.