Why is it okay to criticise some things that are bad for the planet and not others?

[perhapsimight]

So it's okay to say that people should stop washing towels every day or stop flying in private jets but it seems that when it comes to something as massively damaging as eating meat it is 'everyone should respect each other's choices'

There is such hypocrisy, confusion and misinformation. Most people will be aware and will make an effort to reduce their carbon footprint, but only so far as it doesn’t inconvenience them too much.

I haven’t flown for years and only very occasionally before that and I use the car to get to places that aren’t on bus routes, or when it’s impractical to use public transport. I use buses to get around locally

What is annoying is shops like M&S, where I was today. Advertising peaches from Spain as being producers who are known to them. Advertising the fact that they use wooden knives and forks for their takeaway lunch snacks, when the air con is on so fiercely that it’s arctic in there.

The thing is, we all do have to eat. You can't change supply chains overnight to be perfect.

We don't have any need to wash towels very frequently, to have more than 2 children, and to charter a specific plane to fly us and only us to a destination. You can stop all those things TODAY (if you don't already have more than 2 kids), but you can't stop eating.

Switch diets, yes, but as PP have said, total dietary changes need to be thought through on a population level. No point getting everyone eating manky quorn only to find it does just as much environmental damage.

My diet has become more veg based, but that still involves out of season produce, tinned products etc.

My gut instinct is that we'll need to undo a couple of generations worth of conditioning to reduce our diets back to local, unprocessed fruit and veg, AND meat, not the international interseasonal cuisine we've become accustomed to.

Human beings could eat meat sustainably. Seeing as we evolved as meat eaters, it’s our quantity that’s the problem.

That’s different to plastic use which is just shit for the environment full stop.

The problem is the mass production of food, goods etc which use masses of energy and generate huge waste.

I don’t understand why there has to be such a blame culture around this issue.

A lot of people who are skint (like me) already have a low carbon footprint because we can't afford holidays, heating on too much, lots of throw away items or waste food. I eat vegetarian more than half the time because meat is expensive. To be told I should give up my weekly steak treat by people who have plenty of luxuries in their lives is really fucking annoying. So yeah, I'm going to point out that, on balance, my lifestyle is pretty environmentally friendly and I'm not taking any bullshit lecturing from people who doing far more damage than I am.

I'm actually a fan of an "environmental allowance" for everyone. So I can keep my weekly steak and disposable sanitary products and those lecturing me can pick which of their two yearly overseas holidays they want to keep.

@Camomila we’re a vegan and gluten free house. It works fine. Don’t buy ‘vegan’ foods or pre packaged stuff. I guess for some people it’s boring but it’s fine for us.

Eating a healthy diet based on local food is not possible in the UK. Not without a massive population reduction (hello no deal Brexit). Even like that in most of the country it would involve eating mainly cabbages and potatoes for most of the year. The martyr types would love it

Honest, realistic, well-informed voices are a tiny minority in this debate.

I think the arguments against eating beef are pretty scientifically sound. If you choose not to cut back on beef that’s up to you. Maybe you are making compromises elsewhere but that doesn’t make the science wrong. Let’s all just make the adjustments we can manage and support others in making the adjustments they can manage. It’s not an all of nothing approach but sitting here continuing to consume in exactly the same way isn’t going to work we are all going to have to give something up.

Ultimately, people are too selfish to stop polluting the planet unless forced by government, which clearly isn't going to happen any time soon.

The good news is we are driving ourselves to extinction and once we're gone the planet will be better off.

we are all going to have to give something up.

Why? My carbon footprint is already only 2/3 of the UK average (according to the wwf and I trust their science). It really isn't fair to ask me (or people like me) to give up yet more.

It's not selfishness imho.
It's the fact that many are aware that it's such a small impact that can be done by an individual.
Even if I go totally meat, imported good free, stop flying, walk everywhere and put 2 sweaters on over winter instead of heating, it will make 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% difference.

The WWF calculator doesn't ask how many times you wash your towels though

I found it really annoying actually. I couldn't give great answers to most of the travel ones except flights, because I walk to work, but have a car for occasional social or leisure use (my husband can't drive).

I have spent nothing on clothes for 3 months, but I might need to replace most of my wardrobe when I reach goal weight. But what if it's just charity stuff? Ditto for furniture. What about building work? I've never had my kitchen replaced, for example.

@thecatsthecats yeah, it is very.... Basic. I am pretty sure mine is higher then it should be (still under the goal) because it's 2 of us in a 3 bed house. It asks about temperatures but I have 20 in a living room with minimum heating (in a winter I spend about 40 on a gas and that includes water and cooking!) compare to some other houses I lived in, while bedrooms are 16-17 max. Oh and I bought a laptop in last 12 months🤷 After 6 years...

cats yes, I agree it isn't perfect. I rent so I've literally never had a new kitchen or any building work done. At least the car one did take in to account how much you use it. I was, however, most put out that I couldn't include my ultra low water usage.

I do honestly think that, on balance, I'm doing pretty darned well in terms of environmental impact - admittedly more due to lack of money that a desire to be virtuous. I will accept criticism and "advice" only from people who are already doing better than me. Everyone else really needs to get their own house in order first!

It's ok to tell people to stop doing things that damage the environment...that I don't do.

It's not ok to tell people to stop doing things that I do do.

I want to help the environment, so long as it doesn't effect me or alter my lifestyle. Other people need to alter their lifestyle.

Also, there are too many cars on the road, which means I often get stuck in traffic in my car.

Yup!

I’ve yet to see someone say “why would you have a 5th baby? That’s whats ruining the planet! So selfish” but having clean towels? Go straight to Hell, do not pass go, do not collect £200

It's the fact that many are aware that it's such a small impact that can be done by an individual.
Even if I go totally meat, imported good free, stop flying, walk everywhere and put 2 sweaters on over winter instead of heating, it will make 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% difference.

Yep to this too. Industry is a massive problem. A handful of Mners feeling guilty about having beef is all good and well but it won’t make any kind of dent in the problem.

I don't lecture people on their choices - there is no one way to make more sustainable / ethical / environmentally friendly choices which is why it can become such a contentious minefield. Lots of environmental choices have downsides and require balance and thought.
I would rather people did what they can instead of nothing at all - so I tend to try to share my experiences with others with the hope it might inspire/encourage them rather than lecture them with it being the 'right' thing they 'must' do - which I think tends to put peoples backs up.
I have a bugbear about buildings being properly insulated and ventilated so that they don't require extraneous energy to heat and cool them -1st rule use less! . I have also through my professional body campaigned for VAT of environmental refurbishments to be dropped to make it easier for existing building fabrics to be upgraded. Energy consumption is a massive problem in this country and reducing consumption can also reduce everyday costs unfortunately its often expensive for that initial investment so this needs to be tackled probably by government properly and not cut to the bone - smart meters are a gimmick that does little for this but seems to be their current panacea

There's no purpose/upside in some environmentally unfriendly things- washing towels every day- pointless. No need at all.

Some things are a total waste. Other things are more complicated. Take plastic packaging- some of it is totally wasteful, some of it protects a product or makes it last longer so is ultimately waste saving not wasteful.

Farming needs to be overhauled, but there's more to that than just going vegetarian. Old fashioned mixed farming was very sustainable. Arable farming much less so.

Because practically every single act a human can commit in the context of the contemporary capitalist world economy is bad for the environment. With regards to veganism, for instance, a credible environmental case can also be made against it. Plastic straws are bad, but paper straws are not being recycled. And other reusable alternatives, like cloth nappies, need to be washed at high temperatures every day. It's a fool's errand trying to be carbon-neutral.

The whole "changes in consumer behaviour can save the world" narrative is just a smokescreen that detracts from the real culprits, with the real power to change things. We should be focusing on holding to account the corporate actors in constant pursuit of growth and their political lackeys.

The environment etc brings out the hypocrite in virtually everyone.

It seems everyone is happy to give up a few irrelevant things themselves but expects everyone else to give up the important/most damaging things. After all, they have special reasons why they can't give them up but no-one else has such reasons!

The meat eating debate is interesting because it's not as black and white as as "meat is bad, vegan is good".

Eating locally resourced meat is arguably better for the planet than eating avocados and drinking almond milk that are both flown in from the other side of the world, for example.

Also, lots of people also live lifestyles where they have limited choice over what they buy. People often don't have the money or time to buy local, organic food. If the only shop open when you get home from work is Tesco or a similar 24h supermarket, your choice is limited to what they sell.

If you're struggling to make ends meet, your priority is to make sure you're putting food on the table. Making sure your children are fed takes priority over sourcing ethically produced peas.

I work on a slightly different basis.

Nobody should try to be perfect, however each individual should do whatever they can. I’ll leave that up to them to decide what is/isn’t doable.

We all have things we can’t compromise on.

Also. The paper, which people want instead of one use plastic, has to come from somewhere 🌳 (where is a chainsaw emoji when you need it...)

We eat meat - British meat. This country is green and pleasant because of meat. We have a wide ecodiversity because of meat - hill grazing is good for the environment. We grow grass - keeping us green and pleasant, maintaining plant and insect biodiversity - in order to feed animals through the winter. The UK is suited to growing meat. You can't plant fields of wheat on hills. or in wetlands, or where the weather is mainly too cold or too wet. Sheep thrive. goats thrive, cows that are bred for hill grazing thrive. And the environment is enriched by their very presence, by the fact that they graze, by the fact that we maintain fields of grass for winter feed.

The science of animal free, monoculture agriculture will be responsible for the deserts of our future.

The psychology of shame has an effect on all of this, at the moment people are more ashamed of having un-fresh towels or secondhand clothes or driving a tiny old car than they are of being uneviromentally friendly. It might go against our instinct to be kind but maybe it is necessary to make people feel ashamed to effect change.
It's the mechanism that's occured in other movements of social change.
Doesn't mean it has to be a direct personal attack though.

When the oil runs out, there'll be a shortage of plastic so it will solve itself in time, along with lower emissions etc.