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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

... to think education in this country has gone in the wrong direction?

58 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/08/2019 15:38

www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/08/great-university-con-how-british-degree-lost-its-value

Inspired by this New Statesman article by Harry Lambert.

This summer, a department at the University of Sheffield sent an email to students. A group of them had complained about their marks for an end-of-year essay. While a few had received Firsts, these students were given 2:2s and Thirds. “Thank you for raising the issue,” began the email, “and thank you also for your patience.” After reflection, the head of department and the director of “learning and teaching” had decided that, “our normal procedures… failed us. For this we apologise unreservedly”. The department had decided to “uplift all the marks… less at the top and more at the bottom”. The poorly performing students had their marks raised by nearly 40 per cent. The few who had done well saw their marks barely change. “Again, our apologies,” the message concluded, “but we hope that this is a satisfactory resolution.”

It's not just Sheffield. All universities are in thrall to students. As the article states, many students are accustomed to being spoon fed from the exam-focused school system. They arrive at university with poor standards of literacy and numeracy, not much experience of reading widely, thinking critically or motivating themselves, but high expectations of what they should be awarded for their money and the doors this will open for them. When they don't get what they want or expect, they complain and the university management fall over themselves to put things right. (Obviously, not all students are like this, but a dispiriting number are - I used to work in a university and saw first-hand the disproportionate focus on student whinges, sorry, complaints.)

I was a student nearly 40 years ago. Things were very different then. It was sink or swim and undoubtedly some people sank. Standards of teaching were not always very good and teaching was low priority for academics compared to research. There was virtually no pastoral care, nor did most students expect any. Drop out rates were high. Accommodation was basic. But the huge, huge benefit we had was that we weren't going to emerge from our undergraduate studies loaded down with debt, and if we managed to complete them, our degrees were really worth something.

The proportion of students getting “good honours” – a First or 2:1 – has leapt from 47 to 79 per cent ... He doesn't say over what time period but I've found another source that says in 1996-7 just over half of students got a First or 2.1. In the year I graduated I think it was well below that. A 2.2 was a perfectly respectable result then. Given that 50% of the population now go to university, has there been some miracle making the UK's young people hugely more intelligent than previous generations? I'm afraid I don't think so.

I wish we could start again. Play-based learning for the very young children, no formal education to 6 or 7, no SATS, far fewer public exams in school, a broad-based curriculum all the way through with a highly educated, trained and regarded body of well-paid teachers delivering it. Decent vocational and technical education/training, with no snobbery about those who choose to go down that route instead of university.

OP posts:
woman19 · 23/08/2019 15:44

Great article.

So true.

Inflated marks, and creative exam practices, don't just happen in HE, either. Wink Schools do this; especially as local housing markets are dependent on results.

Corruption is the default in any commodified education system.

GCAcademic · 23/08/2019 15:45

There is no way marks would get changed on the demand of students where I work. We have rigorous marking systems and students who try to get their mark raised are given short shift. We’re happy to meet with them to further explain why the mark was awarded (they already get detailed feedback), but is made clear that academic judgement can not be appealed.

Grade inflation is another matter, though, and is definitely happening.

GCAcademic · 23/08/2019 15:48

Basically, we are in a situation where the consumer expectations of students are actively at odds with their ability to benefit from what higher education has to offer. It’s not surprising that they have these expectations, but it’s a disaster for everyone concerned. Apart from highly-paid senior managers.

woman19 · 23/08/2019 15:50

There is no way marks would get changed on the demand of students where I work

Reason why kids demand this, is it's been common practice in english schools ( especially, grammars) for decades.

minibroncs · 23/08/2019 15:54

I was a student nearly 40 years ago. Things were very different then. It was sink or swim and undoubtedly some people sank. Standards of teaching were not always very good and teaching was low priority for academics compared to research. There was virtually no pastoral care, nor did most students expect any. Drop out rates were high. Accommodation was basic.

Well, that sounds shit so I'm glad it's changed.

It's not exactly difficult to see that if teaching standards have improved, students now receive decent pastoral support, the reasons for high drop out rates have been addressed so those less privileged than you can complete courses, and disabilities are accommodated properly then more people would be able to achieve their potential.

That's a good thing.

woman19 · 23/08/2019 16:07

it's changed
Definitely has:

English HE is now a duplicitous ponzi scheme, relying on the naivety of children and parents. There will be PPI type mas compensation cases aplenty against HE providers and the dodgy loans companies, in the next 10 years I predict.

There have already been successful individual actions by students against so called universities for deplorable 'service'.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/08/2019 16:14

It wasn't shit for most of us, minibroncs. There were shit aspects, but we had a rigorous curriculum and we were taught by real experts. They may not have been the most accomplished teachers, but they knew their stuff and most of them managed to get that across. We learned to use the library independently and to manage our time effectively (eventually - first year was often a year when not much work was done but a lot of other learning was taking place).

Of course it's important for those with disabilities to have support so they can achieve what they're capable of. One of my own children took advantage of that support at university and it made all the difference, so I'm very grateful for it.

The article I link to says that the Tories, followed by New Labour, made a big mistake in trying to treat higher education as a business. It isn't. It's not good for society to try to treat it as one.

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GCAcademic · 23/08/2019 16:22

Reason why kids demand this, is it's been common practice in english schools ( especially, grammars) for decades.

Yes, so I gather. They get quite a shock when they find out that it doesn’t work like that at university.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/08/2019 16:29

I'm glad to hear it doesn't work like that everywhere, GCAcademic.

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Benes · 23/08/2019 16:29

This would not happen in the university where I work. We have a robust moderation process which means we sometimes amend individual marks but we'd have to have evidence of serious failings in the marking system for something like this to happen but our marking processes make that difficult.

I've had students complain about marks and they are told that we don't re-mark. I've had a student complain recently and she took it all the way through a three stage complaints process.

Students see themselves as customers and their degree a product they have paid for. It's a problem.

Kuponut · 23/08/2019 16:36

I missed a first by two marks when I did my first degree nearly 20 years ago (god that's depressing). Very well regarded university and a department that had a reputation for not giving out many firsts (think 2 students in my cohort got them). Yes it was very much sink or swim - we had a short session on the departmental expectations for essay writing, a handbook with the referencing style information in it - and that was it - these are your deadlines and essay topics, this is your timetable - get on with it.

I'm about to go back to uni and just doing their e-induction modules and bloody hell - lecture recordings and replays, specialist library staff for each subject area producing guides basically listing the "good" resources to use and the support they're throwing at the new undergrads is just such a contrast. Ironically they're throwing all this support out there - but the things I actually would find of use to me, like a pre-course reading list and the information regarding the departmental preferred referencing style - so I can get my head down and back around this stuff in advance... haven't bloody materialised yet! Think I'm more of a self starter than they're used to - I'm very much going into it with a "first or bust" attitude.

Foxyloxy1plus1 · 23/08/2019 16:49

If teaching standards have improved, and pastoral care is better, why are we constantly being told that the mental health of today’s youth is in crisis.areet

When you take a system that was originally intended for the most academically able and open it up to at least half the population, you run the risk of devaluing it. Too many people go to university because it’s what you do. Too many emerge with a degree that doesn’t fit them for a future career path. How many times have you heard about graduates who are unable to find jobs that they thought they would find and are working in coffee shops etc.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/08/2019 17:13

I wish we hadn't relabelled polytechnics as universities. They did a terrific job teaching more vocational subjects to HND and degree level, with excellent industry links, placements and so on. I've often seen it said that their regulatory body, the CNAA, was more rigorous than many universities. One size never fits all.

I also wish that way back in the late 40s when the Education Act was being enacted setting up universal secondary education for everybody they'd managed to get the money together to set up decent technical schools as well as grammar schools and secondary moderns. That would have made all the difference to the status of technical and vocational education in this country.

And finally, how and when did we stop expecting employers to train their staff? When I was younger it was standard practice to train on the job and many employers sent trainees off to polys to do courses on day release. Does this happen now? My impression is it doesn't much, other than via apprenticeships. So we have employers not paying a living wage, not providing secure full-time employment and not providing decent training. Where is all the money going then?

OP posts:
SnuggyBuggy · 23/08/2019 17:17

I think the introduction of tuition fees has totally changed how students relate to universities. It can feel like paying for a service and if you don't get what you want you feel ripped off.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/08/2019 17:57

Yup. We had a student who complained because the lectures for one module were on her timetable as x-y pm and they sometimes ended before y pm. Her exact words were 'I've paid for z hours of teaching and I expect to get z hours of teaching.'

  1. Because she complained all the time, I always paid attention to how she was getting on during the year. The feedback on her early assignments consistently said 'You need to pay more attention to proofreading your assignments so you avoid basic errors of spelling, punctuation and grammar, which are losing you marks'. Guess what the feedback on all her later assignments, including her dissertation, said. She had had all feedback in time to consider it before submitting the next assignment (we sweated blood over this). She habitually submitted assignments days before the deadline, so had had plenty of time to do one final check. She didn't get the final result she considered she deserved, and submitted a formal complaint (which failed).
  1. The following year we paid particular attention to making sure that the teaching for that particular module ran all the way to y pm. The academics stressed to the students how much effort we were putting in on this front. The students batted it aside. That year they had a different preoccupation. So the following year we focused on that.

And so it went on.

OP posts:
MockersthefeMANist · 23/08/2019 18:19

Bloody Blair saw that Japan and other countrues had 50% of the population graduates and wanted the same. No curiosity about apples vs oranges. No consideration of German or Swiss technical and vocational education as an alternative to academic study.

We do honours in three years. You could never expand that to half the population without dilution.

Hollycatberry · 23/08/2019 18:22

When I was younger it was standard practice to train on the job and many employers sent trainees off to polys to do courses on day release. Does this happen now? My impression is it doesn't much, other than via apprenticeships

My employer offers apprenticeships for school leavers and it works quite well at that level/age.
As my firm also pays the apprenticeship levy, there is budget to utilise the apprenticeship scheme for all sorts of training including degree level equivalent courses which include distance learning and/or classroom days depending on the course. Often over 2/3 periods. I’m taking really good courses that would give exemptions for professional qualifications. I am aware of employees turning these courses down because they don’t want to be seen as an ‘apprentice’ and they already have a degree. It’s unbelievable.
The problem is the attitude towards vocational training. People think they have a degree and they don’t need to do anymore. It’s a shame because there has been an effort to get more training via apprenticeships but some people aren’t interested.

IAmALazyArse · 23/08/2019 18:30

It feels somewhat devalued, doesn't it. I am currently studying and I honestly wondered to myself if I should push myself to get the first or if employers will just look at it with "Yeah. Sure" because it's well known fact grades are inflated.

But I also understand why students do demand a lot for their (lot of) money. It costs a ton. But I agree that many students are being ridiculous.
"There are no slides for the lecture so I don't know anything about the topic"
Mate, we know the topic name and have 3 books that have it in🙄
I don't ever want to be in a position when I will have to train graduates if they are anything like the many I met🙄

IAmALazyArse · 23/08/2019 18:32

And yes to the fact that not pushing high percentage of population to go to uni is not ok. Some people seriously suffer and then complain and then it has to all slow down a bit and things have to be repeated a lot...
There is no shame in not being academic type! Own it and be good in something else. Everyone is good at something.

IAmALazyArse · 23/08/2019 18:34

And yes to the fact that not pushing high percentage of population to go to uni is not ok.
Sorry. Too many nots.
And yes to the fact that pushing high percentage of population to go to uni is not ok.

cardibach · 23/08/2019 18:36

Reason why kids demand this, is it's been common practice in english schools ( especially, grammars) for decades
@woman19 how do you thin’ this works then? They do externally marked exams with moderated coursework if there is any at all. As a teacher I have no discretion about marks at GCSE or A level. At the least, they’ve had 4 years when teachers can’t change their marks.

HerRoyalNotness · 23/08/2019 18:38

That’s astonishing!

I was shocked to read of the leaked grade boundaries for the recent A levels with a maths A only requiring achievement of 55% mark. On what planet is that worth an A!! The system does need an overhaul for sure.

I was telling a friend that in my recent essays for uni i didn’t feel like I’d answered the question and I was surprised I got a distinction in the module overhaul. So perhaps I’m benefitting from this lax marking as well

CraftyGin · 23/08/2019 18:39

When I was at uni in the 80s, my graduating class was over 50% 2:2. This was a Russell Group Uni in Engineering.

I am amazed when I hear of extremely weak students that I have taught getting Firsts and 2:1s, I am floored.

SnuggyBuggy · 23/08/2019 18:39

I just think the genie has been let out of the bottle with changes to education. The 50% thing has made it feel like its uni or nothing for middle class kids and involving so much money is always going to change a relationship. I'm not sure what the next best steps are.

IAmALazyArse · 23/08/2019 18:54

I was shocked to read of the leaked grade boundaries for the recent A levels with a maths A only requiring achievement of 55% mark. On what planet is that worth an A!! The system does need an overhaul for sure.

I just wanted to ask if you were joking. But then it actually makes sense. Number of times I wondered how particular person got an A (well, that's what they said)