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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

... to think education in this country has gone in the wrong direction?

58 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/08/2019 15:38

www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/08/great-university-con-how-british-degree-lost-its-value

Inspired by this New Statesman article by Harry Lambert.

This summer, a department at the University of Sheffield sent an email to students. A group of them had complained about their marks for an end-of-year essay. While a few had received Firsts, these students were given 2:2s and Thirds. “Thank you for raising the issue,” began the email, “and thank you also for your patience.” After reflection, the head of department and the director of “learning and teaching” had decided that, “our normal procedures… failed us. For this we apologise unreservedly”. The department had decided to “uplift all the marks… less at the top and more at the bottom”. The poorly performing students had their marks raised by nearly 40 per cent. The few who had done well saw their marks barely change. “Again, our apologies,” the message concluded, “but we hope that this is a satisfactory resolution.”

It's not just Sheffield. All universities are in thrall to students. As the article states, many students are accustomed to being spoon fed from the exam-focused school system. They arrive at university with poor standards of literacy and numeracy, not much experience of reading widely, thinking critically or motivating themselves, but high expectations of what they should be awarded for their money and the doors this will open for them. When they don't get what they want or expect, they complain and the university management fall over themselves to put things right. (Obviously, not all students are like this, but a dispiriting number are - I used to work in a university and saw first-hand the disproportionate focus on student whinges, sorry, complaints.)

I was a student nearly 40 years ago. Things were very different then. It was sink or swim and undoubtedly some people sank. Standards of teaching were not always very good and teaching was low priority for academics compared to research. There was virtually no pastoral care, nor did most students expect any. Drop out rates were high. Accommodation was basic. But the huge, huge benefit we had was that we weren't going to emerge from our undergraduate studies loaded down with debt, and if we managed to complete them, our degrees were really worth something.

The proportion of students getting “good honours” – a First or 2:1 – has leapt from 47 to 79 per cent ... He doesn't say over what time period but I've found another source that says in 1996-7 just over half of students got a First or 2.1. In the year I graduated I think it was well below that. A 2.2 was a perfectly respectable result then. Given that 50% of the population now go to university, has there been some miracle making the UK's young people hugely more intelligent than previous generations? I'm afraid I don't think so.

I wish we could start again. Play-based learning for the very young children, no formal education to 6 or 7, no SATS, far fewer public exams in school, a broad-based curriculum all the way through with a highly educated, trained and regarded body of well-paid teachers delivering it. Decent vocational and technical education/training, with no snobbery about those who choose to go down that route instead of university.

OP posts:
cantkeepawayforever · 24/08/2019 20:32

Nowadays, as I understand it, the exam boards say that if you get above a certain mark, you get the top grade, regardless of how many other candidates got that mark too.

No, other way round AFAIK.

IAmALazyArse · 24/08/2019 21:03

It's not just grades which are a problem in my opinion. The feedback has gone soft. I assume they have to so I am not angry at them, just massively frustrated.
"All is really great, just tiny, tiny, issues"
"Then why is it graded 65 not 75..."
I realised that many lecturers are being extremely cautious when giving feedback and I would love to if they just gave it to me straight. I even told them to be brutal with me. How else will I learn?

Teachermaths · 24/08/2019 21:10

Nowadays, as I understand it, the exam boards say that if you get above a certain mark, you get the top grade, regardless of how many other candidates got that mark too.

No this isn't true. The percentage of students getting a certain grade stays roughly stable year on year. The grade boundaries change to reflect this. Much like the old system but with a bit of norm referencing included.

Booboostwo · 25/08/2019 09:05

Everything has gone wrong in HE, everything, not just grades.

  • Widening access and participation, an admirable aim, has turned into encouraging everyone to go to Uni and changing all training and educational routes to Uni courses.
  • assessing research through the REF has resulted in an insane bureaucratic burden, assessments that can be manipulated by the unscrupulous, and a proliferation of research outputs that are never read by anyone much less have any kind of useful impact.
  • large numbers of students have led to huge changes in the way we teach in all disciplines. In the humanities the tutorial two students to a tutor system is long gone and been replaced by seminars where we struggle to keep student numbers below 25 per group. Even in the sciences, e.g. medicine, there are huge shortages of qualified teachers (how can doctors find time to teach given the mess the NHS is in) and massive compromises, e.g. where there were 2 students per cadaver, now 6 practice on one cadaver while another 6 wait their turn.
  • attempts to raise the profile of good teaching have backfired, with funding tied to research there are no financial benefits to being a good teacher, while students are motivated to return good evaluations regardless otherwise they would be shooting themselves in the foot - who wants to graduate from a Uni that has just dropped down the ranks because of poor student evaluations?
  • seeing the student as a customer who should graduate satisfied with the services rendered is catastrophic for the teacher-learner relationship. Fundamentally Uni is about the subject and learning - this goes for everyone at University. Making it about anything else, e.g. jobs, impact, satisfaction, is at the root of the problem that has taken one of the best HE systems in the world and systematically destroyed it.
MarieIVanArkleStinks · 25/08/2019 13:28

-seeing the student as a customer who should graduate satisfied with the services rendered is catastrophic for the teacher-learner relationship. Fundamentally Uni is about the subject and learning - this goes for everyone at University. Making it about anything else, e.g. jobs, impact, satisfaction, is at the root of the problem that has taken one of the best HE systems in the world and systematically destroyed it.

I agree with every word of this statement.

On the point of the REF: the new criterion of 'significance is meant to illustrate personal views/disciplinary shifts which have been fundamentally altered by this work. This is flawed for numerous reasons, most obviously that it's impossible to know a work's ipmact before it's even made it off the printing press. This whole idea of grandstanding my own work and boasting about how bloody brilliant it is in the introduction of a monograph is anathema to me. My research can stand or fall on its own merit; colleagues in my discipline do not need patronising with information about how bloody brilliant I am. They can decide that (or otherwise) for themselves, on the basis of what's been written.

I don't care if I lose REF points for my institution. It's nauseating, and it's one particular hoop I'm not jumping through. Ugh.

toiletseat · 25/08/2019 13:38

Considering we’re paying ~£30k for a degree worth much less than the ones our parents got for free... I think genuine concerns about patchy marking shouldn’t be classified as “whinging”

woman19 · 26/08/2019 01:00

our parents got for free

It wasn't free.

I couldn't believe the 3rd or more of my £500 a month pay cheque which went in tax in 1984. With £150+ London rent.

I was an economic migrant from the north.

It was right that I paid such high taxes to pay for my public services, including a fantastic polytechnic education, for many decades.

Despite the government then , we retained the best of the Labour policies of the 60s.

In the EU, of course.

Namenic · 26/08/2019 01:28

De-escalation should be the way forward. Improve professional training access so that people do not require degrees to access lots of careers eg accounting, some forms of engineering, admin, IT. Perhaps make things modular so that people can do their training in sections while working.

Many jobs do not require a degree but use it as a filtering mechanism to get someone with high ‘intelligence’. But that’s not really what makes someone a good fit for a job. Drop the degree requirement for jobs and you might be opening up to people with a broader range of skills and preventing people from getting into a lot of debt.

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