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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Michaela School and behaviour - AIBU

987 replies

herculepoirot2 · 23/08/2019 10:36

AIBU to think that you might read this behaviour policy and think it is authoritarian and unnecessary, but to also think that, with results four times better than the national average, these people might have a point about the benefits to young people of being expected to work hard and behave well?

mcsbrent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Behaviour-Policy-11.02.19.pdf

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 27/08/2019 11:40

Actually, I learned a lot of maths from the really excellent textbooks I had

But you didn’t sit and read them in bed. Obviously you need an explanation of some sort, but if you read the method but never actually do any questions using the method, it’s as effective as saying you can ride a bike because you watched a video of someone riding a bike.

So sitting reading a knowledge organiser is a crap way of learning maths.

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2019 11:43

I can see several problems with videos instead of visits. the most obvious one is that people will assume it's all stage-managed to give the best view

That depends on what you think the purpose of the school visits is. Is it to help teachers/visitors learn from your methods (in which case a selection of videos would be fine) or is it to show to your detractors that yes the kids chant poetry every lunchtime?

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2019 11:45

If the tours are to help teachers learn from their methods then that’s fine (and like I said, switching to videos would make sense).

Using the kids to prove to other adults how very clever you are would not be a good reason to hold tours.

Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2019 11:48

It is also fairly easy to stage manage a visit. I have seen those in many many schools!

Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2019 11:49

The Free School I visited actually seemed less stage managed than many just 'normal' schools I visit.

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2019 11:54

Thinking about Comp Sci (and a narrow curriculum!), even the KCL Maths school in London only offers Maths, Further Maths and Physics to A-level, with Computing or Economics AS. They used to do computing A-level, not sure why they stopped.

ChloeDecker · 27/08/2019 12:16

They used to do computing A-level, not sure why they stopped.

It’s probably due to a big Catch 22 situation regarding a small uptake and lower results than those ‘Big Three’ because it was not really covered in Primary, Little to no time at KS3 allocated, ill thought out and rushed GCSE syllabus, which puts students off A Level, which in turn means schools drop it and universities can’t say they require it because so few do it.
It’s a subject that does need a specialist and time to implement and imbed knowledge and Michaela would have had a great opportunity to do this right from the start but something tells me that they wouldn’t want to risk their results by introducing it now and facing the issues that all other schools have had to.
I would be seriously impressed with their teaching if it would work introducing a new subject like that and it would be great to see them put their money where their mouth is.

If Michaela style teaching works for all, then it shouldn’t matter about finding the ‘right teacher’ (plenty of Comp Sci NQTs without jobs) etc.

SansaSnark · 27/08/2019 12:20

Totally anecdotal, but I know schools who've had a massive increase in uptake of Computing as an option (at GCSE and A-level) since they've been able to appoint female teachers of the subject. And the same is true in a few schools of Physics A-level . Having role models in these fields is really important and by not even teaching computing, you could make it seem like computing is "not for them".

I do think it is really hard for schools to find good computing teachers, though- it's a relatively new subject, and most CompSci graduates have a huge number of options open to them. ITT recruitment numbers are low, and there's not the large pool of existing teachers that there is in other subject- obviously some ICT teachers can/have successfully transferred over but that's not possible for all of them, and even historically I think a lot of ICT teachers were non-specialists.

And now that schools have the option of not teaching the subject at all, it's perhaps easier just to drop it, rather than struggle to find people to staff it?

There are real concerns about some groups becoming disenfranchised from both IT and computing education: schoolsweek.co.uk/computing-education-in-steep-decline-following-government-reforms-warns-new-report/

SansaSnark · 27/08/2019 12:23

@ChloeDecker Cross post, but I'm amazed you know Comp Sci NQTs without jobs! When I was looking for a science job this year, I was seeing lots of posts advertised around the south west. Maybe it's geographical?

ChloeDecker · 27/08/2019 12:30

I think it is Geographical but also the fact that people don’t tend to leave their jobs-if you are a trad ‘ICT’ teacher, you won’t get another post easily elsewhere so you stay. It is true that there is a lack of specialist Comp Sci teachers but not a huge lack of empty roles. None of my PGCE trainees have jobs for Sept.

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2019 12:34

I’ve been roped into teaching a bit of KS3 computing.

kesstrel · 27/08/2019 12:38

That depends on what you think the purpose of the school visits is. Is it to help teachers/visitors learn from your methods (in which case a selection of videos would be fine) or is it to show to your detractors that yes the kids chant poetry every lunchtime?

I'd respectfully suggest that's a false dichotomy.

Because why would any teacher want to watch CPD videos from a school widely represented as turning its pupils into miserable robots and grossly exaggerating/faking its early internal results?

I haven't forgotten the thread from two and a half years ago, based on unfavourable Guardian articles, where all those accusations were made and more, including that their methods would never work at GCSE level. And on this thread as well, we've seen all sorts of claims of sharp practice and deception.

The only way to show the world that the children aren't miserable, and the claims the school makes about learning are at least somewhat true, was to let them talk freely to the children, and go into any classroom they choose, on a personal visit. Otherwise you just get people making insinuations about what goes on behind closed doors.

ChloeDecker · 27/08/2019 12:39

You’re a star noble! They will be lucky to have you.

And now that schools have the option of not teaching the subject at all, Technically not true but we know academies and free schools can opt out of the NC requirements!

I was part of the pilot GCSE in 2010 and know first hand how hard it is to suddenly change subject with no resources, no text books, no money to pay for training and no extra time to plan! That’s why Michaela would have had the luxury of planning time with a given national curriculum and new GCSE syllabus but something tells me they wanted to not touch controlled assessment subjects with a barge pole. They irony is that there is no controlled assessment in the 9-1 syllabus anymore!

Emilyontmoor · 27/08/2019 12:41

What a sad thread. I am sure the Michaela school is providing an environment that works well for some pupils. The sad thing is that too many people in positions of power in education are the ones a system like that works well for. Of course if your success was defined by a system based on measuring the absorbing and regurgitating of facts in timed conditions then you will support it’s continuation.

For many of us school was a never ending series of blows to self esteem as we were set tests that we could not succeed at. It was bewildering to me and my teachers that I had scored highly in my 11+ results (VR and NVR only), had ideas and could enjoy applying logic and analysing texts and problems, loved reading and literature (though reading had come slowly and spelling never really at all ) I could never show that ability in test conditions. Their and my conclusion was that I must be stupid or lazy or both. I just did not understand that some people can memorise a page of facts and be able to serve it up in the right format in the time given in a test or exam. In the same way I am sure some people do not comprehend that somebody can be able but not show it in those conditions, even though they may have put far more time and effort into revision. I had thought we had an education system that has moved on from defining pupils by that weakness. Indeed we have in the best schools, I take the pint that private schools have the resources to do that more effectively. However does that mean that state schools have to revert to a system that does so badly by a significant proportion of its pupils (1 in 10 will have a significant Specific Learning Difficulty regardless of ability but I believe that separating pupils out into those who have a SpLD and those who haven’t is a false dichotomy, many pupils will share aspects of the profiles of pupils with SpLDs.) The recently revamped English Language and Literature GCSEs that have returned to more emphasis on rote learning have resulted in a downturn in pupils wanting to study English at a higher level. I can well believe it, it was only my love of literature, not the studying of it, and the not spectacular exam results, that have given me a lifelong gift of not just enjoyment but the discovery when studying the literature of another culture that at Masters level I had enough ability to get over 70% in an exam and get a distinction. Not because I was cured and had learned to pass exams but because the examiner was marking me on my analysis and ideas.

In real life I have worked with both the Board Members of some large companies in manufacturing, the media, logistics and finance facilitating strategy and planning and it is incredibly common that senior managers who are good at analysing their resources and markets and developing a strategy to exploit them effectively and a plan to implement that strategy can’t spell or do simple arithmetic. And it doesn’t matter because they have those strengths. Indeed the MOD are open about recruiting people who are neurodivergent because their skills in analysis and spotting patterns make them good spies.

How sad that the Michaela would put a Richard Branson (whatever you think of his ethics and personality) Sir Paul Nurse or any of the other shapers in our society who did not do well in school exams into their bottom stream and just fail to get them. Thank goodness I got my DDs through the system before it went backwards......

SansaSnark · 27/08/2019 12:44

@ChloeDecker I'm really shocked that none of your trainees have jobs for September, and I can see how that would be a massive problem for retention and encouraging people to train. As I say, I saw quite a few job vacancies in Bristol/further south west when I was looking for a job- when you search for "science" it often brings up Computer Science too. But obviously that's no good for someone job hunting in another part of the country!

I can see that traditional ICT teachers probably stay in their roles though, so if there's no movement locally, you can be a bit stuck. I guess there's also quite a few jobs which aren't full time or where you're expected to teach a bit of maths etc too?

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2019 12:46

Because why would any teacher want to watch CPD videos from a school widely represented as turning its pupils into miserable robots and grossly exaggerating/faking its early internal results?

Confused why do they visit the school in large numbers?

I don’t think Michaela is widely represented as a bad thing either. The Daily Mail bloody love it. The DfE bloody love it. Key players on edu-twitter bloody love it. And it’s spreading across the country.

Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2019 12:47

Time for you to go on a visit kesstrel ?

Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2019 12:53

To be fair when people on here have commented based on visits , you have told them they're wrong or that it isn't enough evidence! I enjoyed my visits to Michaela schools but have concerns about elements of the way they operate and the narrowness of vision. And the silence was not for me,personally, nor the lack of flexibility in anything.

Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2019 12:55

We have recruited IT teachers. They haven't lasted, sadly, for a range of reasons.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 27/08/2019 13:59

I enjoyed my visits to Michaela schools but have concerns about elements of the way they operate and the narrowness of vision.

Come on now Piggy If you’re not 100% Michaela, you’re obviously prog rather than trad and determined to leave kids doomed to failure with your ineffective methods. Wink

I can never understand why there can’t seem to be some muddle ground. Why does not being 100% for Michaela mean that you are against it? And it isn’t just here. If you dare to criticise a bit of what they do anywhere else the problem is you not whatever element you are querying.

Piggywaspushed · 27/08/2019 14:02

I like the idea of a muddle ground !

SabineSchmetterling · 27/08/2019 17:01

You’re right about a middle ground. I’ve been one of the people defending Michaela on this thread but, I must say, whilst I really admire what KB has achieved, it isn’t a school that I would personally choose to work in. I admire the commitment to consistency massively but I wouldn’t want all of my lessons scripted. It doesn’t suit the way I like to teach. I also like that my school is a bit more relaxed about uniform as I’m not massively observant. I think they have their core principles spot-on but its not an environment that would suit everyone.
What I think I find frustrating sometimes is that as a profession we sometimes seem quicker to jump to the defence of schools that are performing poorly than those that are performing well. I understand why that is... We know that the teachers in those schools are probably doing the very best they can with really challenging intakes and poor leadership. Inequality in education is not going to get any better until those schools improve though and whilst the leadership in those schools might be lovely people with great intentions, their methods aren’t working. I’ve been watching the secret teacher programmes and whilst the staff in those schools were clearly doing their best, poor discipline was clearly an issue in all of them. That isn’t the fault of the teachers, but continuing to make excuses which suggest that you can’t expect behaviour or results to be good in schools with challenging intakes is letting down poor kids.

SmileEachDay · 27/08/2019 17:33

I’d agree with you Sabine.

The thing Michaela has tackled successfully is variation in quality of teaching between classrooms within their school.

This is something that has been picked up time and time again by ofsted, parents, children, teachers, consultants (basically everyone) as being hugely damaging to children’s progress.

chomalungma · 27/08/2019 18:03

There just isn’t enough time when you have a full timetable of classes and endless admin. I don’t think Michaela would have been able to achieve what they have achieved if they’d started with a full school

That's interesting. Busy teachers, with busy timetables, a full school of children of all abilities, lots of administration, marking, planning etc leaves little time available for that focussing on how to teach, in depth working with pupils etc

jamoncrumpet · 27/08/2019 18:06

I worked in a Michaela type school then moved to a much more liberal comp. I saw flaws in both systems but some things from the more draconian regime stuck with me. I was always outside the door to my classroom in the lesson changes, keeping an eye on the corridor outside and greeting the students as they came in. I seated my students in rows (liberal comp colleagues were horrified - 'but what about collaborative tasks?!'). I insisted on absolute silence when I or another student was addressing the class.

These will seem like obvious things to everybody but a lot of teachers don't do any of these things. And I know this because my students would always say 'Miss Crumpets you are so extra, why are you always watching us down the hall like that?'

It just made sense to me. The corridors can be scary and chaotic places.

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