Cleaning - the demise of my marriage

[isthisit42]

Is it acceptable that my husband doesn't clean his own bathroom? The one I never use? He throws bleach down it now and again but doesn't scrub it. The bend is brown and yuk. I have been forcing myself not to do it for him as why should i?? Am I being unreasonable in not doing it or asking him to do it? I mean I shouldn't even have to ask him right? He should just do it, when I do ask him he huffs and strops like it's the end of the world.

He hasn't spoken to me since Thursday morning as I asked him to clean his dishes that had been lying since Tuesday (I was unwell and had been upstairs for a few days) he wasn't happy at this inconvenience and somehow counteracted this with saying I never get up on time for work.... I was like ok but your dishes need washed so put them in the dishwasher?!

So in effect I live with a 40 year old teenager and it's wearing thin. We've been through plenty in the last two years. He's refusing counselling and I just want a happy life. I also want my house to be clean(ish) without 'nagging' help???

Without being sexist - traditionally men just don't see dirt and expect good old mummy to clean up after them and that means you as his wife takes on the mummy role.

Why the hell should you? He is a grown-up who should clean up his own shit (literally) and I feel sorry for you for being expected to take on the extra load as well as your other responsibilities.

It's high time that men like this were kicked into touch.

Why not just leave his bathroom? He can clean it when he wants to. Get him to buy a set of his own dishes - a plate, bowl, cup, and cutlery - and you can leave those too. There's space for people to do things differently and still live together.

I also struggle with this sort of thing with DP, although not to the extent you are saying thankfully.

He will always do stuff if I ask him - even if it takes him a while - and only occasionally is huffy about it. I often get wound up about why I have to ask him in the first place but then the issue is, if one person doesn’t think it’s a big deal leaving dishes overnight but the other person does, who’s to say who is correct?

We compromise by getting a cleaner, he accepts that he doesn’t really think about cleaning/is lazy about it and that he does need some prompting but it doesn’t mean that we don’t end up having rows about it sometimes as it just winds me up so much!

I think it would be unusual for a couple to be totally matched in terms of house pride and cleanliness - what matters is the attitude towards compromise I think!

In your scenario - I would leave him to it with ‘his’ bathroom unless you have guests use it. If no one else ever uses it I would shut the door and think, fine, have a disgusting toilet then!

@isthisit42 my DP is the same re: the authority thing - I don’t think it’s the fact he thinks he is ‘above’ cleaning or anything, it’s like he is mortally offended if I am telling him what to do!

I divorced my hisband because of this exact reason. The article referred to sums it up perfectly. He does not respect or value you. Full stop. End of. You have two choices - you leave him and start again (which I recommend heartily). Or you stay with him and put up with it. I can more or less guarantee if you go for choice 2 you will at some point go for choice 1.

Me and my husband went for couselling twice - the first time he took it on board and changed for a while. The second time he paid lip service to it. The counsellor even warned him he was making things worse by doing that and he continued. He was never going to change so I left him. I had a nine year old son and I had financial worries. It was tough but I survived - I actually thrived.

At the end of the day it's your choice - good luck with whatever you decide to do

We have a cleaner, even once a fortnight saves a lot of arguments

Don't get a cleaner ffs!

He sees you as his cleaner. You don't really need to know anything else about this man.

Without being sexist - traditionally men just don't see dirt and expect good old mummy to clean up after them and that means you as his wife takes on the mummy role

Have a look at the pinned thread- there’s research than men do see the dirt, exactly the same as women. They just aren’t conditioned to do anything about it. From their pov if they leave it it will magically clear itself...

Thanks all, Iv not had time to read the whole article but it's resonating with me already. Might have to make him read this but then I feel like that's a threat. I'll divorce you if you dont clean and to an extent that's right but he won't be able to see the deeper meaning of it all....

I have to use his bathroom as its the only one with a bath and the toddler wants to use that toilet to potty train as it's daddy's. It is very much a shared space but became his responsibility as he uses it daily for a shower. I use it for the odd bath and for the toddler which I hate as it's constantly grubby so I end up cleaning it

If you never use the bathroom then let him have it as disgusting as he likes. He needs to be stepping up and doing housework in the rest of the house though

Oops just saw you do use it

In that case you should consider divorcing him as he doesn't want to contribute to your lives together

you say you have a job and friends where you live. That's pretty good.

You can't stay in a bad marriage just because your mum isn't on tap.

there’s research than men do see the dirt, exactly the same as women. They just aren’t conditioned to do anything about it. From their pov if they leave it it will magically clear itself...

I don’t think that is necessarily the case. I think it’s that they DO see the dirt and genuinely aren’t that bothered by it. So leave it. It’s not that they think it will clean itself, or assume that their partner will do it necessarily. You only have to go to an all male student house and see the difference between that and an all-female one. It’s a bit of a generalisation I know but I think that on the whole, MOST men just aren’t bothered by a bit of dirt or mess.

To be honest, I’m not a neat freak myself. Yes, I would PREFER a perfectly tidy house with everything spotless (I would be the first to complain of a holiday home was not spotless) but in my own home I’m just not too bothered about a couple of dishes left overnight or piles of ironing building up or even a few pubes visible on the bathroom floor! They’re OUR family pubes!

But I don’t want a spotless house enough so that I want to do Groundhog Day cleaning to keep it that way. I saw Gordon Ramsay’s house on “Born Famous” the other day and it looked perfect. Really lovely and I would much prefer that depth of neatness in my own home. I wondered how much they did themselves and how much cleaners/housekeeper/interior designer/declutterer did and thought it probably wasn’t a standard they could keep up on their own without constantly being at it so not something I could replicate in my own home.

Saw your update about the bags of shopping.

Years ago I was in a relationship with a passive aggressive, lazy, selfish manchild.

At one point he slipped a disc in his back. Was on bed rest for 2-3 weeks and then ordered not to do any heavy lifting for "a few weeks". Fair enough, it was totally genuine and I didn't mind doing all the housework and shopping.

Except, after he was fully fit again, I kept doing it - and he let me.

Over 2 years went by and I still was putting all the shopping in the car, taking it out at the other end and packing it away, while he sauntered into the house, flopped onto the settee and put the telly on. Nothing wrong with the fucker apart from total disrespect for me.

Then I pulled a ligament in my back. Absolute agony. Told him he would have to do the shopping and putting away. He looked at me like I'd asked him to climb Mount Everest and bring me back a stick of rock.

@CurlyhairedAssassin I think we have the same husband, I have been through exactly the same process. I still do more but it's at a level that I can cope with now and crucially my other half does recognise that he needs to contribute more.

OP I agree with the people who've said just to stop doing things for him. This is the only way I managed to get my OH to realise how much I did for him. We now have a cleaner which keeps the arguments down but for a couple of years cleaning was the only thing we argued over

How does he think he does the same as you? Have you listed all the jobs you do and all that he does? When it's in black and white and your list is twice as long how can he deny it?

What is his reason for not wanting to go to counselling?

I'm sorry but the impression I'm getting is it's not going to work. You've already shown him you're prepared to move and nothing actually changes. He has refused counselling. I dont think theres much more to be done other than put up with it or leave

Dont get a cleaner - you don't have a cleaning problem. You have an attitude problem (in him). You need him to change his attitude towards you and your home. But some men can be so proud they won't change.

@CurlyhairedAssassin

From the “guest post” at the top of active threads...

*Many of you mentioned the gendered standards of cleanliness. There is actually a recent study on this (journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0049124119852395). A group of researchers from Australia and the USA conducted an experiment, in which they asked more than 600 men and women to rate the level of cleanliness in a set of pictures (rooms of different levels of messiness and cleanliness).

They found that men are not 'dirt blind' per se. In fact, the men and women came up with similar cleanliness ratings for the same pictures. But when asked whether they felt responsible for cleaning up the mess, the men and women provided very different responses: the women were much more likely to feel that they are responsible for maintaining cleanliness. As mentioned in many of the posts, the gender norm is still widespread that women are expected to take care of domesticity*

He will not change, he has already demonstrated that.

My sister once moved into a shared house which was all Male. They probably did not know what they were letting themselves in for as she is a bit of a clean and neat freak. I went with her to help clean one day. The kitchen was gross. Some were medics and seemed to be growing their own penicillin in the fridge. Don't remember how long she stayed.

Look he’s really thinks this work is your work. Deep down he’s a misogynistic. He has issues with authority - your not in charge of him your his wife and meant to be a team.
Sadly he won’t change. Why should you remain unhappy - it’s your life toooooo.

yes, fundamentally it boils down to lack of respect

Its so much to do with how we're raised as well, the expectation was that I would be quieter, more helpful, and be tidier than my brother. He got away with murder, and with doing so little really in the house, whereas because I liked cooking and helping my mum I did so much more, and then it was expected, whereas my parents stopped asking him as he was lazy/wouldn't do it/would do it poorly.

He's now married to a woman whose as lazy as he is, and their house is so messy. Mine isn't perfect, but my DP and I split the tasks and hire a cleaner for the bits I can't be arsed to do. £60 a month between us is much much much better than any aggro about cleaning or arguments over the dishwasher. I'm pregnant and suffering with nausea, and he's just stepped up, because he isn't a dick.

Sorry OP but you've married an arse. He see's mess, he just doesn't care enough to take care of it. I think I'd explain it's about the lack of respect of assuming you'll come behind him, and what that then says to you about him. If he can't change, and he can because being tidy and cleaning a toilet isn't any easier when you have a vagina, then is it worth staying?

Is he like this with other issues? I.e will he take your input about other matters?

If not I suspect his "thinking" is the issue. He is reacting to the dishes request as he sees this as a power struggle and therefore your instructions to him are controlling. This flawed thinking isn't fixed by a cleaner as that puts a bandage over the issue rather than resolve his thought processes.

The fact he articulates "control" gives you an insight that this is about his ego. There are limited ways to mitigate this, you may have to phrase everything as a polite request but it is draining and you will be living a life where you will never feel relaxed or in a genuine partnership.

I don't know why but we seem to have men who grow up with this flawed thinking (and I do think it is more common with men).

They fear being controlled so stupidly resist any sensible reqyests by their partners. The more insistent or upset you are about a dirty toilet then the more he will resists it is now a battle he has to win. The roots of this seem to be in their family of origin where a common factor is an environment where they were not allowed much input.

I lived this and left as there was never a chance to have a mutually cooperative relationship. I remember seeing a family member and her partner just happily discuss chores with each other and it was the light bulb moment that my normal was so skewed due to Ex.

Did your partner previously act passive aggressively previously, procrastinating over tasks until the baby arrived and now it's ramped up?

If you are doing any of his laundry or ironing, or putting away his clothes, then STOP