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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Anti-vaxxers are neglecting their children?

281 replies

sallycinnamonn · 20/08/2019 12:08

Having a conversation with a friend about this whole anti-vaxxers malarkey.

She made an interesting point saying when a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child, it should be seen as neglect, as they are failing to protect them and their wellbeing and are putting them at risk of disease/death. It should be considered neglect just as it would be if the parent was putting them at risk of disease/death through placing them in a inadequate, unsafe environment etc.

I don't agree with anti-vaxxers but have never thought about it this way before. What are your opinions on it being considered as neglect? I'm interested to see what others have to say about her opinion.

OP posts:
GiggleMcDimples · 20/08/2019 16:59

I can't help but think that folk who ignore scientific evidence and research are doing their children a disservice.

But there is scientific evidence to not vaccinate. It just depends on which viewpoint you take. As I stated, I vaccinate my children because I absolutely believe it's the best thing to do, and that everyone's herd immunity protects everyone else. I'm with you on that. But I can see that there are other sides. I gave the other examples because they tend to have strong polar opposite viewpoints.

Plus, in many countries even today, formula feeding can be a death sentence.

Stressedout10 · 20/08/2019 16:59

@Nogreatergood
I'm far from middle class however I have seen the results of many of these diseases my mum was 1 of 13 children only 6 made it to adulthood and of those 6 1 was deaf due to measles and another was partially paralysed by polo oh yeh and my best friend at school her oldest sister was a rubella baby.
If you had seen and heard what I did you would say its neglect too

NoCauseRebel · 20/08/2019 17:00

IMO the issue here is that we have become so obsessed with the need to vaccinate against everything that people are no longer in a position to know which illnesses are genuinely serious illnesses and which might have some unpleasant symptoms but are mild illnesses in the scheme of things. And as such people choose not to vaccinate than to vaccinate against everything.

It’s like chicken pox, Yes, it can be unpleasant, but CP is not a serious illness. Serious complications happen but they are extremely rare, probably about as rare in fact as complications from MMR are, and yet people play down the complications which can occur due to vaccine damage and talk up the potential complications from chicken pox.

Polio is of course a serious illness as is measles. However rubella is not a serious illness and mumps is more serious to teenage boys, and in fact there is some evidence emerging that more and more teenagers are contracting mumps because the immunity from vaccinations is not life-long.

As for rubella, if the woman is immune then she won’t pass the vaccination on to her baby.

Rather than name calling on both sides of this discussion it would make more sense for studies to be done into which illnesses have genuine risk of serious complications and which don’t, thus meaning that campaigns can be launched in order to promote those vaccinations which really are necessary, while leaving it up to parents to decide whether to vaccinate their children against the other illnesses.

Also, the fact that the government failed to make single jabs available to parents at a time when the scares were at their height led to parents deciding to not vaccinate at all, whereas if single jabs had been available many of the parents who didn’t vaccinate at all would have done so on a schedule.

It’s interesting to see how the discussion on this has changed over the years though. When I first joined MN mine was still small, and at that point there was a lot more sympathy for the fears of parents who didn’t want to vaccinate their children, as well as understanding of children who parents believed were vaccine damaged. Now parents have resorted to hurling insults which benefits no-one.

My DS did have mmr fwiw, but I wouldn’t even have considered vaccinating him against chicken pox had the vaccine existed when he was little. He caught the virus naturally anyway and is therefore immune now.

While I think that vaccinations are necessary in many instances, I also think that we over vaccinate children. Overloading their immune systems with the amounts of vaccines we give them all in one shot is bound to have an impact on a child who has lower immunity etc but which the parent may not realise.

Also, it is incredibly unreasonable to suggest that people should vaccinate their children to protect other people’s. We are each responsible for our own children. Where does this end? Should everyone have the flu jab because a few can’t? Should my whole family have the flu jab because I have a heart condition which puts me at risk of endocarditis which I did in fact contract three years ago through the flu?

It’s just not that simple, and no amount of name calling is going to change the views of someone who has done their own research or perhaps had their own experiences and has chosen not to vaccinate.

Rather than calling people thick, telling them they’re neglecting their children and putting others at risk and should be prosecuted etc, why not come up with logical discussion as to why vaccination is so necessary in so many instances?

Calling someone thick is only going to make you feel bettter, but look worse.

Azeema · 20/08/2019 17:02

Breastfeeding protect babies from disease for first six months, so is formula feed neglect too?

Putting baby in day care exposes baby to more illness and disease than being home, so is that neglect too?

Fizzy drink and sweets cause tooth and mouth decay/disease...is that neglect?

Living near busy road or in big city cause lung disease , even death from pollution- also neglect?

If we say any parent decision that increase risk of ill child is neglect, there will be long list.

septemberdread · 20/08/2019 17:09

Excellent post Nocause

SinkGirl · 20/08/2019 17:30

It’s like chicken pox, Yes, it can be unpleasant, but CP is not a serious illness. Serious complications happen but they are extremely rare, probably about as rare in fact as complications from MMR are, and yet people play down the complications which can occur due to vaccine damage and talk up the potential complications from chicken pox.

Sorry, no. That’s absolute balls.

My twins recently had chicken pox and I’d been told that it’s just a mild illness. Not for us it wasn’t. Both ended up with infected pox but one was extremely severe, to the point he couldn’t bear any weight on his leg for days or sit upright and needed two courses of antibiotics. If we hadn’t caught it when we did he’d have been dangerously ill.

The problem with something like chicken pox is that admissions / deaths aren’t attributed to chicken pox - they’re attributed to the secondary issue (sepsis, encephalitis). Studies that have looked at the actual figures show over 3,000 Hospital admissions per year, around 15-20 deaths, 3-6 of which are children, due to complications of chicken pox

Are you honestly saying that the MMR hospitalises over a thousand people per year and kills 6 children per year? I just want to be clear that this is what you’re suggesting.

www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(16)30093-7/pdf

Please do post any evidence to back this up

Teateaandmoretea · 20/08/2019 17:31

Also, it is incredibly unreasonable to suggest that people should vaccinate their children to protect other people’s. We are each responsible for our own children

We clearly have different morals. Personally I'd feel utterly shit and responsible if a vulnerable child or baby got ill because I hadn't vaccinated mine. But as with all these things we all see things differently and have to make our own decisions.

I don't think it's neglect as such but it's really stupid.

And as for that teenager (I assume) who suggested she hadn't caught anything because of a strong immunity. Er no my love it's herd immunity which is waning so watch this space or alternatively use your brain and get yourself vaccinated.

Teateaandmoretea · 20/08/2019 17:35

And let's not forget that these people who haven't vaccinated aren't just mc plonkers who have read nonsense online. They are also very frequently parents who are actually neglectful and who just cba.

It's interesting I've never met anyone in RL who had admitted to being an anti-vaxxer. So I reckon a lot of it actually about shit parents actually and true neglect.

NoCauseRebel · 20/08/2019 17:40

So, it’s ok to suggest that numbers of children dying from chicken pox are under-represented but death and disability because of vaccination is not?

And even if children are catching secondary infections due to CP, the truth here is that the numbers of children catching CP is going to be far greater than those being vaccinated, because any aged child can catch chicken pox whereas the demographic for vaccination is only in preschool children.

So you literally cannot make those kinds of comparisons anyway.

RippleEffects · 20/08/2019 17:53

@NoCauseRebel do you know of any research, medical papers or evidence to back up that disability and death due to vaccination is under-represented?

SinkGirl · 20/08/2019 17:54

It’s not “if” - it is happening, as proven by multiple studies. Finding the data is confounded by the fact the hospitalisations occur for secondary issues, hence studies being done to clarify.

Please show me one piece of evidence that there are more children being hospitalised or dying due to MMR - that was your claim, which you should really be able to back up if you’re going to make it. You can’t, because it’s untrue.

And even if children are catching secondary infections due to CP, the truth here is that the numbers of children catching CP is going to be far greater than those being vaccinated, because any aged child can catch chicken pox whereas the demographic for vaccination is only in preschool children. So you literally cannot make those kinds of comparisons anyway.

So you’d work it out on a per capita basis then, to establish whether chicken pox has a greater risk of adverse outcomes than MMR. This is pretty basic stuff, and just goes to show the absolute lack of integrity in the anti-vaccine arguments.

There were 72 deaths in Europe last year from measles alone. How many deaths do you think were caused by the MMR?

Pikachusmum · 20/08/2019 18:08

Its not neglect. Its child abuse.

Teateaandmoretea · 20/08/2019 18:14

sinkgirl what people have difficulty in understanding is that everything in the world has a risk. Including vaccinations but that the risk of vaccinations is lower than the risk of not having them. And the risk of not having them is only as low as it is because erm others do.

People expect things to be zero risk and nothing is. People die from accidentally suffocating themselves in a quilt, no one suggests going to bed is dangerous 🤦🏻‍♀️

SinkGirl · 20/08/2019 18:21

Indeed. My username comes from the fact that I almost amputated my arm by falling through a bathroom sink.

I do not advocate the banning of sinks.

JenniR29 · 20/08/2019 18:21

‘But there is scientific evidence to not vaccinate. It just depends on which viewpoint you take’

No no no no no no no. There quite simply isn’t such evidence. Unless you are medically exempt then all the evidence says that the enormous benefits of vaccination far outweigh the (very very small) risks. To suggest that anti-vaxxers have any scientific evidence to prop up their stance is absurd.

SinkGirl · 20/08/2019 18:23

It just angers me when people say things like “MMR is probably more dangerous than chicken pox” despite there being no scientific basis for this claim.

Give it a week and on another thread someone will be saying “I read somewhere that more people die from getting the MMR jab than they do from chicken pox”, and someone reading that will parrot it somewhere else.

The amount of misinformation is frustrating when the actual information exists and is more accessible now than it ever has been in all of history.

Choufleur · 20/08/2019 18:25

When parents are fined for taking their child out of school for things like funerals I think a stronger stance should be taken on vaccines. I’m not sure it’s neglect exactly

Sparklesocks · 20/08/2019 18:26

a lot of scary misinformation on this thread

SinkGirl · 20/08/2019 18:27

Overloading their immune systems with the amounts of vaccines we give them all in one shot is bound to have an impact on a child who has lower immunity etc but which the parent may not realise.

Again, if you’re going to say things like this and cause fear in those reading, you need to give evidence.

Here’s another link to debunk that particular myth, again from the WHO
www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immunization_misconceptions/en/index6.html

And an article on a study that disproves this concern
www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immunization_misconceptions/en/index6.html

MuseThalia · 20/08/2019 18:32

Yes, in most cases. I've never been anti-vax but my daughter hasn't had the HPV vaccination because of previous serious illness puts her at risk of having a very bad reaction to that particular vaccination and after discussing it with our Dr we felt that the risk of her having a very serious reaction to it, far outweighed the risk of her getting cervical cancer. All children have had all other vaccinations. I think unless there is a genuine medial reason for a child not having a vaccination, they should have them.

chickenyhead · 20/08/2019 18:32

Anti-vaxers, flat-earthers, what on earth is the world coming to?

Prior to the internet explosion, these people were the town houseplants, watered occasionally, ok to look at, but generally ignored.

Nowadays any moron can start a movement and justify it to millions from their own sofa. It is an unfortunate side effect of global communication coupled with poor education, mistrust of lying politicians and herd mentality.

MuseThalia · 20/08/2019 18:36

I think all flat-earthers need to walk to the edge of the world and take a selfie to prove their point :)

JessicaWakefieldSV · 20/08/2019 18:37

But I dont think not vaccinating can be classed as neglect. So many kids are overweight, have to have 10 fillings in their teeth before they're 5, are given unlimited access to tablets and social media etc when they're too young to understand it...all of this is shit parenting that can have long term consequences for their health and none of it is considered neglect. Neglect is not fulfilling their basic needs like food and heat and supervision

The wrong term is being used, neglect is not correct. Whatever word you use, there are things I’d add to not vaccinating, like some of the above. Obesity is a damn health crisis, a very serious one. 7 of our top 10 causes of death are attributable to diet, and yet many parents are bloody useless and totally lazy when it comes to their children’s basic health needs. If we are going to go down the road of prosecuting parents that don’t vaccinate, fine, but let’s not be hypocritical about it. Let’s look at the figures and target parents who are causing the most health problems and most cost to society. It isn’t the non-vaccinated is it. What about parents who don’t ensure their children get the recommended exercise? Are we all aware of the health effects of an inactive society? These are very serious issues too. The totally avoidable costs associated with poor diet and inactivity, mean that less is spent in other important areas for the rest of us- the elderly & disabled for instance always need more help, and the NHS is struggling because of preventable diseases.

It’s illegal not to educate your child up to a certain age, so why not extend that to vaccinations, diets that keep children in a healthy weight range, and regular activity ( with suitable proof, maybe we can tag the kids somehow ). Poor parenting is costing the rest of us. Let’s book ‘em.

Passthecherrycoke · 20/08/2019 18:43

“Nowadays any moron can start a movement and justify it to millions from their own sofa. It is an unfortunate side effect of global communication coupled with poor education, mistrust of lying politicians and herd mentality.”

I was mulling this over earlier and I think you’re right, but it works both ways- the ridiculous internet battle of the anti vaxxers vs the strident vaxxers has basically spawned a whole generation of problems hasn’t it? As you say, this didn’t used to be. A THING. People always had doubts about vaccines, and people always declined them. Every so often there would be an outbreak. But in the last 10 years it’s just become
So.... exhausting and suffocating. People just go on and on about it

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