To think there's never an excuse for fox hunting

[catspyjamas27]

There's a bull fighting thread up atm.

I feel the same about fox hunting. I live rurally, I get that foxes can cause devastating damage. But is it ever ok to hunt one down and watch it being tore apart for fun?

I just can't get my head around the mentality of the people who enjoy this shit?

I’m not a fan. But on the other hand I feel a bit uncomfortable condemning it outright when I don’t know much about it at all.

If everyone thought like you the world would be a better place. A common sense / moral judgement but reserved opinion based on accepted lack of knowledge. Take note people.

@justasking111 guns aren't quick and humane at all. Even the best marksman isn't going to get a clean shot in the head every single time without fail. More often, the fox will just be winged and crawl off to die slowly and painfully.

Do you eat factory farmed meat OP? Have you ever been on a hunt OP? Great post trainspotting

So really op it’s a bit like when people get together round a table at a restaurant, or at home, or at school as a social activity and eat factory farmed meat. Completely unnecessary animal cruelty for nothing but human enjoyment.

This doesn’t quite stand up logically, you’ve made a bit of a leap there. people aren’t enjoying the suffering itself in industrialised farming. that is what people find abhorrent

It’s like saying what is worse, the drugs trade or porn. With porn you’re enjoying the exploitation rather than the end result. Not that I’m really making the case for the drugs trade. Just a comparison.

Whilst everyone in theory could become vegan and reduce animal exploitation that would come at far greater societal and individual effort to change, than banning a few thousand people from hunting. They could always get a new hobby like knitting after all.

Farmers need to be able to earn a living and provide us with meat & eggs etc
Foxes are vermin, but should killed as humanely as possible, but efficiently too.

One problem with fox-hunting is that the hunt wants foxes to chase and may not be a very efficient way of keeping down the population.
In the off-season they'll sometimes even feed the young foxes, to keep up the population !

Some farmers won't let the hunts near them; others welcome them
That may not just be personal preference, but also whether other methods have been found suitable for that particular farm

When you go to you henhouse at 6am to let them out for the day and find the door broken, half the chickens missing and half headless corpses you might think differently about cuddly wuddly foxes.

Or people could buy meat at the price it costs to rear it in a humane manner. Or they can pick up a couple of chicken breasts in Tesco for a pound then bitch about fox hunting on the internet

For me it's about the mentality of anyone who sees ending a life as a 'sport'.

Yes, culls need to happen.

Yes, people eat meant.

Yes, vermin have to be controlled.

But I simply cannot and will not spend time in the company of any sicko who enjoys causing death, rather than seeing it as a necessity.

That's a complete dealbreaker for me and yes before anyone says it, that includes fishing for 'sport'.

Not really shortstuff the vast majority of followers don’t get anywhere near the actual killing, or are even interested in doing so. Pre ban, or post ban the odd occasion a hunt does intentionally break the law, the majority are there because unless the actual hunt staff were performing a service, they wouldn’t be allowed on the land.

It’s the riding and social aspect for most, hence why the likes of the Cheshire drag hunt were very popular long before the ban, and why many law abiding hunts still have large followings for trails. Or pre ban even the view of the field, or watching the skill of huntsmen, hounds, horses.

Except for the actual hunt staff there with the job of controlling foxes, the death or suffering is not part of the enjoyment, just an aside. And all their subscriptions and caps fund the foxes demise, someone needs to pay the staffs wages and the running costs. And in defence of hunt staff, they don’t ‘enjoy’ it in a bloodthirsty way anymore than a humane, ethical farmer with the highest welfare standards gets a blood thirsty kick from slaughtering an animal.

So logically exactly the same as all those people there for the taste and the social occasion, it might only be the factory farm and slaughterhouse staff actively involved in the cruelty, but without the money and endorsement of all those people enjoying the aside benefits of miserable life and slow death, then it wouldn’t happen.

I’d rather live and die as a fox caught by the hounds than a factory chicken, but enjoying a bit of tortured chicken or supermarket milk doesn’t inspire the inverse snobbery quite the same does it?

Very true. Eating non free range chicken or caged hen eggs is, Imo, appalling. And if it's too expensive to eat free range and out of some people's reach, then don't eat chicken. I can't understand why caged hens aren't yet banned. It's exploitation and cruel.

My dh worked in a chicken factory during sixth form. Some of his stories are frankly horrific.

Worraliberty I agree entirely with your perspective. If something has to die, that's a cause for sadness not enjoyment.

TrainspottingWelsh

I said that the exploitation of the Fox is what people find abhorrent, not that everyone involved in the hunt enjoys the exploitation of the fox

I think you’ve eaten too much Fox meat and you’re not thinking straight

I don’t agree with fox hunting at all but I do think there’s a class war going on. People don’t like toffs/Tories bla bla bla and certain circles of toffs have fox hunting as part of their culture so I think it’s really picked on because of that, yet farmers who put traps/poison down to kill foxes in an inhuman way are left to it....

Factory chicken is 50 times worse, so think about that when you eat your Nando's.

“Do you eat factory farmed meat OP? Have you ever been on a hunt OP?”
I can’t answer for the OP- but for me the answers are no and yes. Your point?

The thing with drag/trail hunting is that foxhounds were bred to hunt foxes, so if they lose the scent of the false trail and pick up the scent of a real fox it's almost impossible for the huntsman to stop them! Once in full cry hounds can't be 'called off' a fox although I've seen hunt staff try and get them back.

Most people who hunt enjoy the thrill of riding cross country and have little interest in the fox. There is something exhilarating about galloping across fields in large numbers, not knowing where you're going or what you'll have to jump next. The horses love it too. There's a lot of adrenaline and freedom.

Foxes are killed by farmers, but since the hunting ban most are shot or poisoned rather than hunted with guns. Many farmers view foxes the way we view rats. Foxes spread disease, eat livestock and generally cause problems for farmers like chewing through wire.

I agree some hunts still hunt illegally, for example some farmers contact the local hunt if they have a problem with the fox population in a particular wood, and encourage them to drag hunt near that wood or even send people in on foot (presumably to flush out the foxes) in the hope of culling the young foxes. I don't agree with this but I don't think it's any crueler than shooting or lamping them. The trouble with shooting is the fox may just get injured then die of gangrene weeks later. When hounds kill it's over instantly.

Since the hunting ban there's been a huge increase in hunt subscriptions. Many drag hunts are now protected by police (due to the violent actions of hunt sabateours).

Factory chicken is 50 times worse

That’s very precise

I don’t agree with fox hunting at all but I do think there’s a class war going on. People don’t like toffs/Tories bla bla bla and certain circles of toffs have fox hunting as part of their culture so I think it’s really picked on because of that, yet farmers who put traps/poison down to kill foxes in an inhuman way are left to it....

Totally agree with this as a non hunting rider. I've had my horse terrified, driven at, held by the reins/bit and pulled about, called every insult under the sun with the prefix posh added for good measure, threatened with being pulled off and my throat slit...... All because I ride, and have hacked out on the same day the local hunt has been out. Not dressed to hunt, riding alone. Just because I ride doesn't mean I fucking hunt, and 'antis' are disgusting the way they abuse horses and innocent (in my case!) People while screaming about animal welfare is complete hypocrisy.
Foxes do need controlling in some areas, I don't agree with hunting them with hounds, I don't think it's that effective. However the local hunts have always treated me with decency and respect when I've happened across them whilst out riding, sadly not the same can be said for sabs or antis.
Horse riding and hunting are two different things, something you need to realise OP with comments like

I know people who ride/hunt. It has totally changed my opinion of them.

But I wouldn’t worry too much, it’s about the only thing the rspca as an organisation are interested in pursuing.

Why should a charity have to uphold the law? That's a job for the police/CPS, who have been notoriously reluctant to prosecute hunters even when provided with compelling video evidence by hunt observers. They have also been reluctant to act when hunt observers have been assaulted while gathering such evidence.

My DSS manages a 40-acre, privately owned wood. It has no public rights of way through it and is surrounded by privately owned land. Some of this land is owned by hunt supporters.

The owner of the wood is fiercely opposed to hunting. One of the first things she asked him to do when he got the contract was to put up fencing, gates and signs saying that hunting was not permitted, and check them regularly. About 6 weeks into the hunting season, he was checking the boundaries and found a section of fencing and a gate pulled down and the rotting carcase of a fox nailed to a beech tree inside the boundary, and a lot of oak and sweet chestnut saplings damaged where horses had ridden through.

He reported the criminal damage, and the police didn't want to know.

The next couple of winters, he found out through the hunt saboteurs group when the hunt was meeting in the area. Each time, he chose that day to do some significant clearance, involving axes, chainsaws and building fires to burn waste wood, in the area near the point where the hunt had accessed the wood. He also had several friends there helping him, and a film student shooting video.

The hounds just leaped the gates/fence but when the riders came along, DSS and the others gathered at the gate and politely explained that it was private land, the owner doesn't permit hunting and that it's not safe while they felling timbe. The hunstmen thought twice about trespassing and they got loads of abuse and threats from the terrier men on quad bikes.

After that, they had a lot of problems with tools and equipment being stolen/damaged and had to get a shipping container to keep everything secure. DSS's truck was vandalised in the village and his business partner's Landy had paint thrown over it. Again, the police didn't want to know. DP got quite worried for his son's safety, as he often stayed overnight there alone when they were doing charcoal burns.

It was all quiet for a few years, so DSS stopped bothering to check their movements. Then, last winter, he found fences down, gates damaged and a dead fox, nailed to the same tree as before.

Some hunts are plainly a bunch of fuckwits who think they are above the law, and in this case appear to be right. They only get away with it because they are rich or posh or both.

Death as entertainment? We ought to have moved on.

Actually no I don't eat factory farmed meat for the reasons you have described. The way the animals are rested and treated during their miserable lives is abhorrent.

But what I will say is that rearing animals for food is imo very different to chasing and killing animals for sport/fun.

I wonder if there is anyone who has been on a hunt who can describe just why they enjoy the sight of a fox being ripped apart?

And yes I know they can cause a lot of damage and are viewed as vermin. My family has been affected by it many times and it's devastating. It's not about liking 'cuddly wuddly' foxes. I don't particularly like them. But they are creatures who are only acting by instinct with no comprehension of any wrongdoing and they don't deserve such a violent death just so some weird individuals can get pleasure and enjoyment from it.

It's disgusting and wrong.
Where I live the poor foxes are all so thin. We destroy their home to build our own homes... 😔

@Crustytoenail I agree with you. I'm not dumb enough to believe there all riders hunt that's perfectly obvious

I also think it's totally hypocritical for people to scream about animal welfare while acting in a way that could harm your horse (and you) it's ridiculous. You shouldn't have to put up with that treatment but sadly it's a subject that many many people find hugely upsetting and provoking.

I couldn't give a toss about the politics behind it. Regardless of class or political views, if you are someone who enjoys being part of this in my eyes you have some pretty disgusting values.

@catspyjamas27

I agree with your sentiments about hunting, and also think that there are more effective and humane ways to control a vermin population that's causing harm, but you lumped ride and hunt together in that post, so no, it wasn't perfectly obvious. That's why my comments were as they were.
The issues with the antis I encountered aside, there is a class thing attached to riding, whether you hunt or not. I've encountered it several times, and from both directions. I think that if the whole posh, wealthy nobs notion were left out of it, then far more could actually be achieved.
I can also see the point that some have made about the fox not being the motivation behind hunting, but rather the riding side of it. I don't own a horse any more, but still do ride and to drop your reins, lean forward and just let the horse go, jumping obstacles you may encounter on the way, and feel the sheer power underneath you, and be in harmony with that is amazing. The horses love a good blow out like that too, especially in a group. Unfortunately places you can do that these days are few and far between, and hunts usually have permission from land owners that solitary riders don't get. I'm lucky, the horse I borrow from time to time lives near the beach, so we use that. So while the fox element is a deal breaker for me, I'd be tempted to drag hunt, if I knew absolutely that the hounds weren't going to catch anything but a rag and some treats at the end of it.

@Crustytoenail you obviously know a lot more about riding than me. I can't comment on hunting purely for the riding techniques/skill associated with it. But regardless of the motivations of the people who do it, an innocent creature still meets a terrible end at the end of it. I just don't see how anyone can enjoy being part of that, even if you don't witness it first hand you know that that's what's going to happen, it would make me feel physically ill tbh.