to think that all UK secondary schools are like army camps?

[Ceci03]

So I'm trying to re-locate to the uk and have another job interview tomorrow. Looking at schools in the area though, I'm a bit concerned about all the rules and regulations they seem to have. They all seem to be extremely strict, what with uniform regulations, detentions, and a huge amount of rules. My ds /dd have been attending a fairly progressive (state) school in Ireland and I'm worried how they are going to cope with it all. Are all (state) schools in the uk like this. It sounds scary.

@MyVisionsComeFromSoup in my area, the grammar schools sixth formers must wear uniform. Haven't seen any issue with it. A lot of my friends went there and my sons father too.

op A lot of Irish schools are really strict on uniforms as well so this can’t be an alien concept to you. My son’s national school is really strict and my previous secondary school in Dublin was ridiculous about rules and uniform but they did consistently come out as one of the best schools in the country so they must be doing something right.

fish that’s really rather nasty- did you mean to be so rude and judgmental hmm
i'm just hateful of school uniforms. sorry if i didn't list all the professions with higher status uniforms.
Its just that usually those parents who insist on unreasonable uniforms say that they are important for attainment to secure a higher end job - like lawyers, financiers, doctors, business people. Things like that - places where uniforms are only for lower level staff.

while I agree with uniform the one supplier nonsense should stop
trousers and skirts with logo are ridiculous
uniform should be available from a supermarket all basics should be capable of being bought on high street exceptions being school ties and badges which can be sewn onto high street blazers
all sports kit should be available from high street, special team kit for away school matches should be in form of a tabard provided by school to go over normal school sports kit there is no need for any regulation over swimming costumes apart from the fact they should be swimming costumes not beachwear ie not bikinis or board shorts
neither should there be any fuss over coats/ bags and shoes apart from being logo free in the case of coats waterproof shoes no heels must be able to run in them without them falling off no open toes or logo's
bags big enough for two A4 folders and PE kit no logo's or offensive/ political slogans
to stop expensive items a note that it is assumed no item in school is worth more than £50
The differences between Scottish and English schools are not because of uniform / hairstyle enforcement or lack of

I really don't like uniform and the amount of pressure on children at school these days but there aren't really other options unless you home educate

Fraggling - agree with you on cost. Have you checked out the gov guidance on uniforms. I think a lot of schools are not complying with it, especially on cost. I think it is statutory guidance so you could say they are rules that are not being followed.

Almost every Irish school has uniforms so I imagine it’s not the concept of uniforms per se that is spooking the OP, but rather the very heavy emphasis placed on absolutely perfect uniforms in some English schools.

One of the issues in this country compared to some is that education is not as valued by parents as it is in other countries. One of the reasons given why the rules are more relaxed in Finnish schools is that teaching is one of the highly regarded professions and children are encouraged to respect them and do well at school.

Yes absolutely this. The value placed on teaching as a profession is much, much higher in Ireland.

Total opposite to army camps.

Basic rules.

Its just that usually those parents who insist on unreasonable uniforms say that they are important for attainment to secure a higher end job - like lawyers, financiers, doctors, business people. Things like that - places where uniforms are only for lower level staff.
They may not have a specific uniform but it’s still a uniform of sorts - suits, smart shoes, shirts etc. My DH is in what you would call a high end profession and he would not be taken seriously if he turned up to meet clients in shorts, t-shirt and trainers.
Yes he can choose the colour of his suit and shirt but it’s still a particular type of clothing he has to confirm to. Similarly I work in an office and there is an expectation of dressing smartly.
In my kids school they had to bring a dress code in for 6th form - which sounds crazy but when you see boys sitting with caps on / hoods up in lessons, trousers hanging down their arse with pants on show, you see why. Same for girls turning up in tiny crop tops and skirts that hardly cover their knickers like they are auditioning for Love Island. Yes it would be nice to have no rules but the kids would need to understand that it’s a learning environment and they should dress accordingly.

I get what you're saying @AgileLass

I'm not a big fan of school uniform. I'd far rather children (and adults) were respectful of the value of education and learnt how to dress appropriately for that, than have to wear uniform. Same as when they start working, they gauge how to dress appropriately for the work environment they are in.

The argument for uniform being a way to belong to the school community, well again, I'd hope that wanting to belong and a sense of pride in doing so goes way deeper than what an individual wears.

As for uniform stopping bullying, I just don't believe that, because bullying still takes place in schools with a uniform code.

Oops, just to add, our culture in this country though means education isn't valued, or respected by many parents and children, therefore uniform exists to try and and establish boundaries which are now missing. At the end of the day though, it's all about an individual's attitude to learning and respect for themselves and community, and I find it disappointing that we as a nation try and fix it with uniform rules.

My DH is in what you would call a high end profession and he would not be taken seriously if he turned up to meet clients in shorts, t-shirt and trainers.
Completely a different thing. He wouldn't be taken seriously, if he turned up in ill-fitting suit from a charity shop. Also i doubt if he got his salary slashed because he cut his hair too short or made some fashion faux pas.

The uniform thing is about conformity. Adults for some reason like to see rows of children looking as similar as possible.

It’s about identity. When children identify with their school community, they care about it. It’s about belonging. When we see uniforms on workers we know who they are, who to go to, be it flight attendants, retail or restaurant staff, NHS staff, police officers. Even office environments have dress codes.

whats wrong with letting our teens express themselves.
Teens have plenty of opportunity to express themselves. How about teaching them they don’t need to use clothes to do so?

Sometimes I think it causes battles that are unnecessary in the long run.

Expecting children to adhere to rules is never an unnecessary battle. We can also teach them to challenge rules they see as pointless or unfair.

Are we raising our kids to be 'worker bees' who conform, or to be free thinkers. Food for thought!

Not food for thought. Debate that’s been done to death as far back as I can remember.

HE rates have sky rocketed

I know a lot of people who HE. Every single one has been pushed into it because the LA has refused to provide suitable education for their kids with SEN. They wouldn’t care about a uniform if the school was meeting the needs of their kids.

Behaviour is a major issue in many schools - not all, but too many teenagers are not disciplined properly at home either because of deglect or overindulgence. Schools have to balance that out for themselves in the day if any learning is ever going to be achieved. People often complain about too many rules, but although sometimes harsh they are pretty easy to follow.

Teens have plenty of opportunity to express themselves. How about teaching them they don’t need to use clothes to do so?
Actually they don't. Fashion and music are basically the only things that they can assert themselves as individuals. A lot of other things require being an adult and having own income.

Mine also express themselves through art, through social media, through debate and discussion, through spending their own money on what they want, through what they decide to read, sharing their thoughts about what they read, and getting others to read the same book and having a conversation about it, through deciding what subjects to study, and what career they wish to pursue, through their hobbies, through their choice of friends. . . lots of stuff that doesn't focus solely on appearance. . .

I'm in Scotland and I thought my school was shit - then I discovered "isolation" in English schools. Wtf is with that???

My school's uniform rule was "dress smart, wear your tie". Although there was WAY too much homework and I was often up past midnight trying to finish it. I had less work on my 4 year uni degree.

Secondary schools locally are very strict on uniform. I agree about the one shop for uniform though and logos, its ridiculous. The one nearby uses very young kids as staff and pay derisory wages, exploiting the kids they make profits from.

Silly ones at ours are that long sleeved shirts must be worn at all times under the school sweatshirt, even when it is very hot. Short sleeve for only half a term in the summer. I don't understand this one at all. Black trousers but they must have a tiny logo near the waistband that is covered by the sweatshirt so you do not see the expensive logo you are forced to pay for.

They change the PE kit to a very similar one you have then got to re-buy. I have given up on this one.

Haircuts, no number 1's around the edges of the hair. My gs has very dark hair, it is cool and smart in summer and it looks nothing like a no.1 or no guard due to his colouring. But it is not allowed and is a non-compliance. Yet boys can have long hair but in a pony tail.

Detentions, he got one for "talking" when he walked into his form room (not a lesson). So silly it was overturned by the head of year. It was an after school detention as well. My dd once got one for "inappropriate use of a musical instrument".

If the kids do something stupid and get an "afty" I do not intervene. They know the rules, but just sometimes.......

I agree with school uniform but I think it's being taken too far in some schools.
How is being allowed to take your blazer off in a heatwave going to make your kids unruly and unfit for employment exactly? I would think that overheating impedes learning surely?

A friend wrote to school explaining that her daughter's shoe had broken and she wasn't able to replace them until the following week... the girl was still placed in isolation.

I've heard endless tales from the same school about kids being punished for having "the wrong black socks on" and other completely ridiculous things, they need to get a grip and focus on teaching and behaviour.

Are you kidding? My experience is that they let the kids get away with murder, well not quite. Yes there's uniform (mine have been at non uniform school, it's a nightmare) and it's sort of enforced but at least as a parent you know the rules in advance. Mine found strict uniform easier because there was less bullying about not having designer clothes

In my experience a lot of the rules are rarely enforced. State schools really aren’t that bad.

Some an be extremely strict - others not so.

Round my way we have 9 secondaries all within a 5 mile radius of each other.

Each is different. Some enforce uniform more than others. Some don't need too as the ethos of attendees appears to be different.

Some have shirt and tie and blazer uniform, some are no skirts. Some are school logos for everything (inc trouser/skirt) some aren't.
Some are polo t shirt and sweatshirt.

Some allow lace up black converse as school shoes and others don't.

Interestingly the more laid back in terms of uniform and use of isolation seem to perform better with regards pupil progress and results. I don't know if this is cohort, area, correct focus or whatever or if the strict schools are so in an attempt to improve things.

What I do know is the strict schools are still performing worse year on year despite the zero tolerance approach.

One school - who performed best for as long as I can remember and the only school to be ousted rated outstanding for as long as I can remember - has massively declined since the focus has become about image and obedience.

I'd look at all schools in a tea you consider moving too. I'm sure one will be a best fit for your dcs. But whichever school they attend they will be expected to follow set rules and uniform standards etc.

Very few high-end, respectable jobs require uniforms.
Really fishcanfly? What about retail staff, workers in restaurants or beauty salons, staff in banks, dentists, nurses? My ds1is a chef and wears a uniform. I guess that's not high end enough for you. What an ignorant post.

Anyway to the op, don't get too hung up on the uniform issue, IME it's rarely enforced in the draconian way some newspaper reports would have you believe.

Try teaching in a school where students don't come in on non uniform day because they are so embarrassed about their trainers, then you'll see the value of uniform. I agree though it should be flexible and affordable.

Schools in the UK are not scary op, again at least not IME.

My kids prefer wearing a uniform to not. They went to a Montessori school for a few years that had no uniform and it was constant scrutiny and bullying (not of them) but of any child who wasn’t wearing the right fashions & designer names, who did not have a different pair of shoes that matched every outfit (kids literally owned 20+ pairs of trainers, 10+ boots, 20+ dress shoes, etc). If you wore the same shoes within a fortnight you were called a charity chav. The school also only did pack lunch and so there was scrutiny over what the kids brought to school to eat and teasing over that too. Certain children would be social outcasts and my kids would constantly be in fear of this fate.
My kids preferred having a uniform because it actually made the kids more accepting of other children.