to give this advice to my (male) mate

[getchagetchagetchagetcha]

Here for traffic. Want your opinions.

I've got a male friend who's separated from his wife of c 5 yrs. They have twins who are now about 18 mths or so, maybe less.

He and his ex fell out quite badly. I don't really know the details. He moved out before last Xmas. I think he had a bit of access after he left but relations got v bad and that stopped. He gives me the impression that he had to leave things because relations between him and the ex were so bad. (Who really knows.)

Since then, he's not seen them for 8 months.

He told me he's not contacted her to see them as he'd 'get a world of abuse' etc. (I've no sympathy for this and this is what has prompted me to tell him what I think.)

He has not much money right now but is grafting and should get some in the next few months. He's waiting until he gets some money together and then hopes he'll have enought for legal support to get court ordered access. He hopes that when he has this money, he'll have a place of abode other that his parents' house (where he currently lives) which will be suitable to house this access.

He's told me all this and I haven't been able to keep my gob shut. We've actually fallen out about it now and I don't expect I'll see him again much now.

I gave him my opinion that he shouldn't keep waiting around for this money to come in. His kids have spent 8 mths now not seeing him, they're still extremely young. I expect they've forgotten all about him. It's going to be v tricky for them to form a great relationship all of a sudden.

Shouldn't he just try and get some supervised access or something in the meantime so he and the kids keep contact. Does he really need a perfect sum of money to see his kids? This is what I've suggested.

It's fallen on deaf ears. He won't listen and is pissed off at me for suggesting it.

I've got kids. If I was a judge, I wouldn't just pass over a few babies to a dad who hadn't seen them for the best part of half their conscious life. It's be too scary for them, surely? There'd have to be supervised contact or something to ease them all into it. I don't know how it all works.

Anyway, hit me with it. If he's doing the right thing so be it, but it just doesn't sit right with me. Anyone got experience of this kind of thing?

Thanks.

I'm with you: if you're going to walk away then just do it but if you ever want a relationship with your children you can't leave it that long, at any age.

If he's really that skint, surely he can get free legal help anyway. It seems like a convenient excuse for someone who won't commit to being a parent. Absent parents will always find some justification and actually I think children are best off without having anyone in their lives who can't be there for them in all ways the children need.

I don't blame you. I would probably have made my opinion known diplomatically, but honestly.

Has he been paying CS since he left?

I can't believe he thinks it's okay not to see his kids for 8 months.

He sounds to me as though he doesn’t want to see them enough to deal with some unpleasantness from his ex, and is wedded to the idea of himself as the good guy who’s grafting away to get a house and court order, for what he thinks as the ‘perfect access. Obviously we don’t know the real circumstances of their split, but from what you say he says, his ex is not preventing him seeing the children.

Nope, I think you're spot on. He hasn't seen them since around ten months old? They wont even know who he is.

Not having a place for overnights, or not contacting her because he will get an earful is a woeful cop out. He's blaming her for the fact he can't be bothered.

Taking the kids to the park or to his parent's house doesnt require huge amounts of money, and its just pathetic he won't even ask the ex because he's afraid of what she might say. It really does not reflect well on him. If he was always seeking contact and getting turned down then that would be different, but just giving up without trying? Spineless.

You also said he 'hopes' he'll have enough money for a suitable place- what if he doesnt? is he just going to wait?

Does he pay maintenance for them?

You did the right thing by telling him the truth. It's a shame he won't listen.

He sounds like a manipulative waste of space.

They'll think he's a stranger. He needs to fix this NOW, stop fannying about waiting for cash, he should send whatever he can. He needs to kick off formal visitation access so ex can't stop contact, and arrange payments, they'll assess what he can pay based on the facts.

Your friend is in that terrible place of issues around the relationship affecting his relationship with the kids + everyone loses. Kids have lost bonding with dad, dad is missing key childhood moments which will damage things the longer he leaves it.

Your friend needs to move yesterday on this, however he can make it work, he has obligations to his children and money is only a part of it.

Thank God for that. I thought I was going insane. He seems to have a network of family and friends around him who are supporting him and what he's doing. (Although I've only got his word for that.)

He says he's seen solicitors who have advised him that he needs to have a house of his own before he should seek access.

I said overnight visits, perhaps, but he really should just be trying to maintain contact with them now even if just an hour or 2 a week. For the children's benefit more than his really. They're perfect strangers now. They'll cry for their mum in her absence even after a short while.

No. He has to have the money to see them 'properly'. My advice is 'patronising' and he said other offensive stuff I won't go into here as not relevant.

I'm done with him. I've said what I think and he got quite nasty with me about it. I understand he's stressed but he knows I have a huge upset on my hands at the minute too.

He seems quite controlling to me. He'll get a shock. Parenting doesn't work like that, especially if you're sharing custody with your ex.

Thanks. Will leave him to it. I tried.

Pluto - he's blocked me now so I can't help any further. He was so strong willed about it, I started to question my judgment even though I felt so correct about it.

I swear, I tried my best.

I would have told him the exact same thing. He needs to do whatever it takes to see his children. Being a fucking baby about even calling his wife is ridiculous. He should be ashamed of himself.

I agree with you. The children are at the age when 'little but often' (or at least regular) would be best. They don't need the big set piece.

Obviously being at his parents isn't ideal but presumably they would like to see their grandchildren? What's stopping him* having the children for the day/afternoon/evening/whatever?

*Other than the fall out with the ex, I mean.

No solicitor would tell him that, unless it’s for overnight visits, which he’s not going to be asking for for quite some time, surely after this long with no contact?

He should be trying to see them every week and if his ex refuses week after week he should make a note. Surely he could have them for a few hours and take them to see family members to start? He doesn’t need his own space for that. I think he’s being selective about what the solicitor has advised and playing the “ poor me” card

Your advice was spot on. I don't actually think he's that bothered about seeing the kids. All he wants is to spite his ex through a court battle.

It's already been eight months. By the time this gets resolved his children genuinely won't have a clue who he is.

I don't believe for a second that a solicitor has told him he needs to have a house of his own before seeking access.

If that were the case, then how would fathers who live with their own parents, or house share ever see their children? The only way I could see that would be if he was looking for overnight access. Sounds more likely he's hearing what he wants to hear.

He's blocked you because he knows what you've said is correct, but he can't be arsed to do the real hard work and try in an imperfect situation so is going to shut down anyone who tells him the truth.

No great loss to you if that's his attitude. At least you tried.

He’s so invested in his own role as the ‘good guy’ grafting to get court access to his children, it’s presumably too discombobulating to listen to your (correct) version of events, as you point out that there’s no reason at all why he can’t maintain a relationship with his children now without a urge or a home of his own.

He says he's seen solicitors who have advised him that he needs to have a house of his own before he should seek access

Well, we all know that’s a lie. I agree with @SperanzaWilde, he’s written this fiction about how he’s doing the right thing by not seeing his toddlers and you just removed the rose tinted glasses.

He might not have liked it but I would have done the same. Men have got away with being shit parents and shit absent parents precisely because no one says anything to them. I’m glad you said it, I sincerely hope he feels like shit and reevaluates his actions concerning his children. Maybe his marriage did irretrievably break down, maybe his wife is a nutter, but more likely she got sick of him and he then left her with twin toddlers while he makes sure he’s ok.

What a Prince.

I bet what happens is at some point he goes for 50:50 or overnight access, gets denied and then he will turn into one of the “I tried for my kids but the courts favour the mother” route.

If he wanted to see his kids he’d have tried before now. He doesn’t, he just doesn’t want to be the bad guy so he’s going to make his unreasonable ex and the unreasonable court system to blame

I seem to be the voice of dissent here, but you don’t really know what’s truly going on inside someone else’s relationship, and if he’s saying contacting ex would lead to ‘abuse’ I think it may well be wiser to go the official channels. If he is subject to domestic abuse in any form then he may well not feel safe in trying to establish contact with the children through her. Obviously nobody truly knows the score other then them. But I’d say as a friend your role is to support or remain neutral or disengage from the friendship if you don’t agree with his actions rather than wade in trying to offer ‘help’ in a situation where you’re not really needed.

It costs £220 to go to court.

It sounds like he only wants to see his children on his terms, and if he can’t get what he wants he won’t see them. This isn’t considering what’s best for them.

In my experience, the family courts would tend to take the same view that you’ve expressed. I don’t think YABU but he clearly didn’t want to hear it.

@JemimaPuddlePeacock, but ‘a world of abuse’ is just a phrase implying he’d get an earful if he contacted his ex, not that the relationship ended because of abuse — and it’s hardly surprising. I wouldn’t be wildly impressed if my ex apparently forgot our children existed for eight months.

He is an utter shit for walking out on a woman raising two tiny babies at once. Did he not realise that was hard? Did he not work out they were likely to be at each other's throats with stress and tiredness for the first couple of years? I'm staggered by how many marriages are based on emotional immaturity with no understanding of endurance of the tough stuff. Raising a baby is hard. Raising two at once (and the complications that often come with twins, health-wise) can be a huge challenge. At very least he should have stayed just to be an extra pair of hands in the early, tough days.

I deeply despise spineless, selfish men like that, almost above all other human beings. Special place in hell for them. So you've lost nothing by that friendship. You were right to tell him the truth.

Honestly? It sounds like he can’t be arsed, which is why he’s not bothered to try in the last 8 months and why he’s still coming up with excuses now. He can represent himself in court he doesn’t need a solicitor, I know people who have done that. It doesn’t even need to get to court if he and his ex agree to try mediation first, I believe.

He sounds like he just can’t be arsed to see his kids. There’s currently nothing stopping him. If i was the family court judge I would not view a father who had chosen not to see his kids for 8 months very kindly.

Going to go against the grain here, only because I have a friend of a friend who delights in doing this.

We all bang on about "male privilege, I think that "female privilege" has a role to play in his decision. (Yes I know I'll get absolutely shredded for this)

My friend if a friend for example, openly states and delights in telling us all, how she fucks with her ex, stops him seeing his kids, how she will "bleed the bastard white" . All because he cheated on her.

I pretty much think that OP's friend may well understand exactly what his ex is capable of. We forget how absolutely powerful we are as mothers. We can pretty much do anything we like, lets be honest, court orders are meaningless and nothing is going to happen to us if we break a contact order. No court in the land is going to separate a mother from her kids. Men are completely at our "mercy" so to speak. If we don't want them to see their kids, then they wont. Simple as that. The father can spend thousands in solicitors fees, but it's all irrelevant, if we say no, then that's the end of it.

Guessing this guy knows the reality of the situation and is just trying to better his situation before the inevitable shit storm he's going to get from his ex.

Unpopular opinion I know, but I have seen the damage an ex with with a grudge can do to a man.

Thank you, everyone.

He has paid her money. I understand that he's been paying the mortgage on the house he's left them all in and/or giving her the going rate for CSA.

Again, this is all just what he told me.

Not an abusive relationship. I'm not really sure why it ended. They seemed v in love on fb beforehand but that's obviously never a true indicator of things. I think it was probably the stress of parenting which pushed them apart but he's not really said that, just attacked her personality a huge amount and said he couldn't live with her anymore. He did say that she tried to get him to come back at the start but he refused...

Looking back at everything he's said and the way he's reacted to what I've told him, it does look like he's a bit of a shit. He does think a lot of himself and is the first to big himself up about various things.

I mentioned that he could surely represent himself and that the court fees for doing that wouldn't be astronomical, to my knowledge.

No, he wants to do it 'the right way'.

He said that any contact he makes with his ex would just be ignored. I suggested writing weekly letters or something to try and make a trail of evidence that he hadn't just given up and he just lost the plot with me for 'interfering'.

He's on his own. It'd be great if he does see them at some point but I hope that when he does seek legal advice when he finally gets the money to so so, his solicitor tells him he could have done a lot to prevent this gaping hole of a relationship he now has with his little kids.

Personally, I'd be fuming if I was his ex and he tried to swoop in for 50/50 custody after all this.

Anyway, not my circus.