AIBU to think the nursery were unfair with this?

[Potaatos]

Please tell me if IABU about this as I think I can be quite sensitive where my DS is involved. This is also probably going to be very outing but I need opinions on this.

DS is currently waiting for an autism assessment but most of the professionals he has seen have said they would be surprised if he wasn't diagnosed with it, so we pretty much know, we're just waiting for the official diagnosis.

They are a term time preschool and on the last day of term (a day DS was booked in for already) the preschool asked him not to attend as they were having a leavers party for the older children and parents were invited and they felt DS would 'freak out'. I had already paid for the session and wasn't offered a different day to bring him or money back or anything. I understand you pay to secure their place but feel its a bit cheeky when they are the ones asking me not to bring him. I also felt that my DS was being excluded.
This isn't the first time I have felt they have excluded DS. The pre school won't have him for more than 2 hours a session as they say he can't handle it which I appreciate as I know how difficult he can be, but in the 6 months he has been there the time hasn't been extended from 2 hours.
My DP thinks we should look for a new place to send DS but I'm not sure if it's going to be like this everywhere because of DS's SEN?

Can your son cope with longer than 2hr sessions? Expecting 1-2-1 care in a Nursery is being unreasonable because they don’t get that sort of funding especially when he doesn’t have a diagnosis or a statement yet.

They obviously didn’t handle the party situation very well at all, and should have either refunded you or given you a session free after the holidays.

They need to do EHCP so they can apply for funding for a one to one if he needs extra support within the session.

How old is he?

If they have a point, why would you want to put your child through it if it can be avoided?

So he should never go to a party or nursery/school celebration because he might find it difficult to cope?

My dd goes to a pre school and she is awaiting autism diagnosis. She goes for the whole session (4 hours) but wont join in with anything , wont sit down on carpet with rest of children, freaks out when they go for lunch in another part of school. I understand its hurtful when they cant take part in things. Ive had to keep her at home when they went to littlr trip out etc as she wouldnt have been able to cope on minibus. At sports day, she did egg and spoon race by holding pre school teachers hand ended up coming 3rd! But we had to leave straight after as struggling with noise and crowd. And getting really upset. I felt sad about that. She is starting a autism specialist pre school in sept for 2 mornings and ive kept her for 2 mornings at her pre school now. We will see how she copes. I would look around for pre school possibly specialist as they will understand and be able to cater for his needs better.

Tbh, I think the use of the term 'freak out' would tell me all I needed to know. I wouldn't want him in that environment any more, though i appreciate it may be hard to find appropriate provision.

I would look for another nursery and complin to Ofsted about their management of children with sen. They have effectively said they can't be bothered with him. As pp pointed out it is discrimination. Also I think you should have reduction in fees if ds attends only part of the session and was asked not to attend the party. The use of "freak out" is unacceptable language from a professional in these circumstances.

They should have attempted to deal with this situation much better. Why couldn't he gave been included in the party but have a small quieter area for him retreat to with his favourite toys in off the games were too much? Or why couldn't you attend with him to be the 1to 1 while the children were watched by the teachers? A comfort g presence as things were a little different? I don't know much about sen or early years teaching but the more I think of this situation the more I think they've have just given up on him and want an easy life and my heart breaks for him and you

Our dd has a severe LD and ASD. No diagnosis pre school and for a time in a private nursery. They were amazing, just very up for the challenge. To them it was interesting not inconvenient. She had dedicated staff. At the Christmas thing she had a one to one who just let her engage it not at her comfort level - so she spent a large chunk of it back in one of the rooms shes very noise sensitive. But it was her choice they tried to encourage her out but didn't force her. All this was pre any extra funds for her place from the LA. The early years are really hard and I'm still grateful for how accommodating they where. I'm sure it took up more staff time than allocated therefore meant extra cost to them. But they were never anything other than kind and supportive and seemed to take it as a badge of professional pride to offer a skilled inclusive service.

Having been down a similar path myself, I would ask them if they were formally excluding him. I would then follow that up with an email so that I was creating a paper trail.

Having an official diagnoses is no magic wand I'm afraid. Most areas are now too cash strapped to give EHCPs, therefore they try not to. By doing the above re exclusions in the nursery you are providing evidence of your DS needing additional resource in order to thrive in mainstream.

(My DS is now 18, and I started this journey at nursery).

Should say 'engage with it at her comfort level' not 'not at her comfort level'!

DS has ASD and although he wasn’t diagnosed at nursery, they were great at managing his needs. They had a plan in place in the event of a meltdown, or if he wasn’t coping in a particular situation they’d take him to a quiet room with a member if staff (sometimes even the office where he loved sitting in the swivel chairs!)

Sounds like they’re not meeting his needs, and I would be meeting with the manager to discuss a plan - and getting those resources mentioned before - so they can manage things better. I’d also be looking at other nurseries who are well set up for dealing with children on the spectrum.

I mean this kindly, but I think you're expecting too much from the nursery. It doesn't sound like they have enough resources or experience to meet his needs. If the change means he will need 1:1 and be unable to sit in the circle for the event, wouldn't that disrupt it and be unfair on the other children? The staff need to keep all the children calm so if one is distressed by the routine changing it may cause chaos amongst the others. But yes they should refund you, and if they refuse to work upwards from the agreed 2 hours, I'd be looking for new childcare.

I understand that they can't be one on one with DS as they don't have staff or funding to do this, so I do appreciate that it must be very difficult for them on the days he is in as someone is probably with him all of the time so like I said, I can understand why they asked for him to not attend. But it does feel like they went with the easiest option which was to not have him there rather than look at possible ways to include him. The same goes for the length of time he is there.
Personally I think he can manage more than 2 hours but I feel it probably boils down to the fact that he still would need someone there with him one to one, so essentially if he did the whole session they would 'lose' one member of staff for the whole day which would probably be difficult for them in regards to their business. It's very difficult to know what to do as like others have said, without his diagnosis I don't think he is entitled to any funding yet so I don't know how well any other nurseries would manage. But I do think I will look at other places and chat to them just to get an idea.

Think you need to have a chat before the start of next term. If they/you are claiming funding for 15 hours, that is what they should deliver. What happens in the hour he does not attend that they/he cannot cope? What plan do they have to enable him to do the full session. Have you applied for ehcp to get extra funding or one to one for him? You should get the charge for that day offset against another day at least.

Welcome to world of SEN.
Yes you can demand the nursery do more but realistically many mainstream schools are neither funded nor equipped to handle SEN. I think you will find that you will be led down a primrose path.

I would advise looking for a SEN school ASAP. Preschool is actually the earliest you could have figured out DS is autistic and he will actually be happier with students of like mind. It can be very isolating to be the odd one out when surrounded by nuero-typicals.

Would he have even wanted to go to the leavers do? My DDs autism would have made her uncomfortable and want to run away. She never liked parties, fun fairs,- anything involving lots of people and noise.

Posts crossed, you can apply for ehcp without a diagnosis. Does this nursery accept Early Years funding, as they cannot discriminate due to sen if so.

I think if they are unable to resource managing your son, they should tell you that and you should move him some where that does. They do not have to provide one on one support, not for the same cost as the other kids. This is not school it's not thr la.they can only do what they can do.

If your son would be unable to manage the event, and you agree with this to an extent, then they were likely acting in his best interests, their best interests, and the other children's best interests.

They should have offered you a credit though, and they have been clear they can only do two hours. They are not resourced for more. It's up to you to then decide if this is enough for you, and if not, to move him elsewhere. They are not required to bring in his own personal staff, or to provide more. I'm sorry.

It’s worth remembering that the leavers party won’t have come as a surprise to the staff, it would have been in the pipeline for weeks. There are plenty of alternatives they could have set up and planned with your help OP.

I really think they are just poorly trained, which is unfortunate, and inexcusable.

I’m a CM and many moons ago I was approached by a single mom of autistic twins looking for childcare. I hadn’t looked after children with SEN before, so I booked myself onto three evenings worth of training, downloaded loads of free resources, had meetings with the mom and put into plan how we would work together. Yes it took a bit more effort, but if I can do it, then a nursery with multiple members of staff, and arguably access to more support than I had, can do it also. I don’t believe I did any more to help this mom and her twins, than any average professional should do.

It shouldn’t be the case that he is still on 2hr sessions, and the manager is using terms like ‘freak out’. That is totally inappropriate and unprofessional.

Definitely arrange a meeting to tak to them. A phased entry would benefit your son but not if they just leave him on 2 hours! They should have a plan for building up his time there and this should be communicated to you.

I'm sorry this has happened. They shouldn't be excluding him. I've taught plenty of classes with children with no official ASD diagnosis who clearly are on the spectrum and we've managed their needs even without specific funding/adults.

If after a meeting you're still not happy they're going to accommodate his needs then you have to move him. It's a party this term, next term there'll be a different reason why he can't come in (doing a nativity or something) and you'll end up feeling like this all over again.

I hope you get it sorted.

Have you spoken to the SENDco does he have SEND plan? The nursery can apply for extra funding for him, so he can have at least some time 1:1. The nursery doesn't sound very professional! Is it private or part of the school system? If it is part of school system they should know what they can do to support his needs...

I mean this kindly, but I think you're expecting too much from the nursery. It doesn't sound like they have enough resources or experience to meet his needs

Then they shouldn’t be taking the op’s money to and then excluding her son from school events.
Even if he is on a funded place then that means all the more they should be accommodating him and his needs.

A nursery tried this on with my ds who has autism, they were quite happy to take on the money I was paying them plus the money he got for a funded place (I topped up) and kept excluding him from event, they wouldn’t let him progress into the room for his peers because the condition was they weren’t allowed to wear a nappy in the room for 3/4 years old, it was a way to motivate the parents into potty training I think but I’ve never known any other nursery take that stance. So he was in a room with 2 year olds.
He wasn’t allowed in on OFSTED inspection days, he wasn’t allowed to sit in assembly in case he disturbed the other children. He made a humming sound to stim when he was anxious.

In the end I asked the local authority if they could do this and they actually contacted the nursery to say that as part of the agreement in order to get government funding they agree to provide a service to ALL children and if they failed to do that then the local authority would re consider the agreement.

They agreed to reconsider but I moved him anyway, he had a lovely key worker there and I was sad for him to lose her but at the end of the day I didn’t want him at a nursery who didn’t want him there.

I think you should look at other providers op, I know he’s close to one person there but I don’t think they’re treating him as they should do.

I do agree with both sides on here. I understand that they don't have to provide one to one for him, especially if it is going to be at the cost of other children attending the session and I realise this is probably a dilemma they face as well but of course as DSs mother I'm going to find it difficult as it is heart breaking to see him not get the same opportunities as others due to a lack of funding. I know this is not the pre schools fault. However I do think more effort could have been put in or at least more communication . Like a PP said, if they would have approached me and said they they will struggle to support DS for XYZ reasons, then we could discuss what would be best for everyone involved.

He definitely doesn't need a diagnosis for the nursery to apply for funding, the opinion of yourself and the nursery (surely they have a SEND plan for him!) and any interactions with professionals will count. Ask the Health Visitor who your community SEN lead is and contact them.

How far have you got with the diagnostic process? My DS receives 1-1 funding in a private nursery paid for by the LEA and has done since pre-diagnosis, your pre-school Senco should be talking to the LEA Area Senco and your Paediatrician should also have notified the LEA that your son needs extra help in pre-school.

@jellycatspyjamas
“So he should never go to a party or nursery/school celebration because he might find it difficult to cope?”

I can only speak in relation to my DD15 who has ASD. For a child that has autism, a party or school event can be the equivalent of getting a tooth pulled at the dentist to a Nuero- typical person. She finds it incomprehensible that it could be “fun”. That’s not to say that she can’t ever go to a party- she is right now at a birthday party where she is one of 3 guests. (3 of the 4 kids also are on the spectrum). It’s at her friends house. She is fine with and enjoys small intimate parties in a home. She would actively not want to go to a large party or a public setting. She has already said she is skipping prom next year because she thinks it is a nightmare.

It’s not that she is missing out, it’s that her mind works differently and finds pleasures in different things.

Tell them because you're paying for the day, can the days be swapped or the cost deducted from your invoice.