Bullying BIL - does he have legal rights?

[Daydreamer246]

Please be gentle...first time poster and I'm really at my wits end so I'm hoping this all makes sense!

To cut a potentially long story short(er)- we don't speak to BIL and his wife. They are incredibly self-centred, arrogant and have tried to bully me for years (icing me out, blanking me when we were all together as a family, acting like I wasn't there when I try to speak to them etc.). We have never had a proper answer as to why this started but it appears it's because I started working extra hours on weekends and they were 'offended' that I did not come along to family events very often (!!). They have been increasingly unreasonable and nasty with absolutely no regard or respect for personal boundaries. After 4 years of this behaviour myself and DH said we no longer wish to be around such a horrible, uncomfortable environment. We have never retaliated back to their ongoing nasty comments just said we do not want to be around this anymore. Our children still see BIL when they are with FIL and MIL (although DD has also always disliked being around BIL since she was very small due to his pushy behaviour).

After a lot of effort (!) we recently planned to have a day out with MIL and a few other extended family members on saturday. The same family members will be spending the whole day with BIL and his family the next day (sunday). However, MIL has reported her saturday plans back to BIL who is now enraged, saying they are going to turn up where we are on the saturday and we can't stop them from doing so. Worse still, MIL is now furious with us, saying she can't understand why we won't just accept this and we shouldn't have a problem with it. I am now feeling extremely uncomfortable with the way things are going. Especially as our children had chosen what we were doing and were really excited to have us present when they see MIL (as she usually just wants to take our children and do things without me and DH there).

I feel as though BIL is losing his mind because he has never had anyone say no to him before. I am becoming increasingly concerned about his OTT behaviour and it is making me feel uncomfortable having my children around BIL at all because they seem to be set on playing games and using our own children as a weapon against us (there is far more that has happened than I can go into on this post!). Everytime I think this situation can't get anymore ridiculous it does and I'm now worried about what is going to come next. BIL, his wife and MIL are now saying we are stopping BIL from seeing our children because we won't do exactly as they say - we haven't stopped them at all (they still see them more often than my siblings who I am on great terms with!), but I am now considering limiting his access (which I never thought I would say) due to his worryingly narcissistic behaviour.

I know this might sound a bit dramatic....but I suppose my main question is does he have any legal 'right' to our children? He is very wealthy in comparison to us and I wouldn't put it past him to go to some extreme lengths to get his own way if we pull back from him even more.

My sister threatened the same when we went nc with my family. Said she was applying for visitation and accces rights lol. I basically told her to give it her best shot as the kids didn't want to see her or my parents and hadn't wanted to for years.i did my checks with my solicitor and he laughed. Your bil sounds unstable and poisonous. Cut him off xx

DD has also always disliked being around BIL since she was very small due to his pushy behaviour

This is all you need to know and concern yourself with OP, your child does not like being around this person, so stop putting your child in situations they are not comfortable with, that includes solo events with MIL, why is she so pushy to have your children with her and without the child's parents? What are they doing that you cannot be involved, is she trying to undermine you as a parent or "play mum" to your children? They all sound batshit and controlling to be honest.

No he doesn't, sounds like an horrific situation though, shame your MIL seems to enable BILs horrible attitude and behavior

Is BIL your DH’s brother and MIL’s son? What is your husband doing about this situation?

Omg, your BIL sounds absolutely nuts. Why are you still allowing contact with your DC? I agree with PPs that his desperate need to see your DC is really weird. His behaviour isn't normal. Sounds like either a control/ bullying issue or an unhealthy obsession with your DC. Either way it is bad news.

Also, why is he surprised that you don't want to see him? If he blanks you and treats you like shit everytime you see him then why on earth would he be surprised that you don't invite him to stuff, and why would he be so hell bent on gatecrashing an event you have planned? He sounds totally unhinged and actually a bit scary.

This whole thing is weird AF. Please stay away from this man, and keep your DC away from him. If that means you need to cancel plans with MIL then so be it. A very small price to pay

He hasn’t actually said that he’s going to court though has he?

Sounds incredibly dramatic all round, and I’m failing to see why you are being so paranoid about this. You simply don’t bother to engage with these people and if they want to do something about it they can pay for a professional to tell them they have no rights.

But he hasn’t actually said he’s going to court so while he sounds unpleasant I think you are being unnecessarily hysterical and dramatic.

Oh and to answer your question, no of course he can't legally gain access to your DC. What a fucking stupid thing for him too say. It's laughable.

Don't worry about this at all, it's nonsense.

I don't think it's that he so much wants to see the children per se, he just wants to be able to control, and in this case the children are the 'tool'. Just out of curiosity, does this BiL have children? Not that it matters, but could it be more about the cousins having a relationship than BiL himself? He's out of line either way, though.

No, he has no 'legal rights' to see your children. You can't stop him from showing up to a public place but that doesn't mean you have to interact with him. If he shows up, take the children and leave.

TBH, I'd be concerned about the time he spends with them at your iLs. It's highly likely that he's trying to undermine you or 'poison' the children when you aren't around. Even if it's only "Uncle loves you so much, but mean Mummy and Daddy won't let me see you" that's way over the line. Especially if it's accompanied by gifts or outings. And chances are your iLs won't stop him.

I'd start by telling iLs that you don't want BiL around the DC and that if you find out he was they will not be allowed to have them alone. And that if you ever find out they've told the children to lie or 'keep secrets' about it from you, they will never seen the DC again.

Is he married to yours or your dh sister. What does she think of all this

I'm assuming he's the DH's brother and therefore the MIL's other son.

He has no rights. I'd cut contact. Why expose your children to this warped dynamic? No-one has a right to see their nieces and nephews and anyone who insists can be viewed in a very suspicious light.

Thank you for all of your replies - you have confirmed exactly what I have been thinking myself!

Just to clarify this is my DH's brother. Also, DC are 8 and 11. I think there was just self-doubt creeping in because the IL's have effectively 'sided' with BIL and they have a great way of playing mind games and convincing us we are being unreasonable because we won't just accept their behaviour. This is the first time DH has ever stood up to his family in his life (which is why their behaviour has intensified) so I think his eyes are being opened a lot and he is finding the realisation of it all difficult to cope with!

I have said to DH that I don't want any of them having DC without us being present anymore because this is getting way out of hand. I can tell DH is uncomfortable with that because all of my IL's are very overbearing, wanting DC without us there (which I find bizarre and concerning, but DH thinks it is normal). MIL also constantly guilt-trips DH and cries if he says DC are busy and she can't take them for the day etc.

My family are nothing like this and it is truly the most bizarre situation I have ever known in my life. Thank you again for putting my mind at rest and realising that I am not the bad guy that they are painting me/us out to be!

Does BIL have children?
Have they somehow laid claim to your kids as family property niece and nephew?

Anyway he sounds like some sort of mafia patriarch and your MIL is a stirrer.

I would probably go tomorrow, be polite but not cosy, use other extended family members as a shield and keep your Dd close.

I am anti-hysteria but I would listen to and respect your Dd’s dislike of this man.

Leave quite early.

But you can’t really stop someone attending a public place.

The ridiculous little man has no rights over your children whatsoever.

I think you would be wise to cancel the planned event with mother-in-law and take the children without her on another day or alternatively take the children on the day planned to something similar but not the same place (Margate instead of Eastbourne/London Zoo instead of Colchester, for example).

I wouldn't recommend allowing a man who behaves as brother-in-law does towards you anywhere near your children and I would suggest supervised contact only for your enabling mother in law.

You can't trust any of them, so mil will have to visit you if she wants to see grandchildren.

Based on your update, this is a toxic family set up you are dealing with. I'm afraid their behaviour will continue to ramp up now you are refusing to do what you are told. This will be esp hard for your dh who (I am sure) has been trained to please and mollify them for years but - for all your sakes - stand firm.

I would explain to your mil exactly why his behaviour has been upsetting, including this latest (quite frankly infantile tantrum). Reiterate that you are not stopping him or his wife from seeing your kids, not them. But you do not feel comfortable being around them. You find their behaviour towards you intimidating and upsetting. Therefore, if they are truly intending upon showing up to further intimidate you through their presence, then you will unfortunately have to replan the day with just you and your family present! Essentially, you need to send a clear message to your MIL that she has the choice - remain impartial or ultimately she will also end up spending less time with you and your kids. Another option would be to stick to your guns/original plans and then invite all your Friends and family to join you too (if they live close enough). That way it will shift the power balance. You have the right to decide who you hang around with. You could potentially, if he were to continually show up to events that you have planned, go down the harrassment/stalker route. I say this not because I suggest that you actually do it (it would be damaging to the family and fairly extreme), but to demonstrate that you also have rights. If he starts trying to bully you or cites his rights, remember that you also have plenty of your own rights. P.s. for what it's worth, I highly doubt that the pair of them are bothered about seeing your kids. They are undoubtedly pawns in order to make them seem like the wronged party.

Could there be inappropriate (apart from the obvious) behaviour taking place OP? Demanding alone time, DD doesn't like him, he's furious you're setting a boundary - well, that doesn't sit well with me.
I'm not a drama llama (AS me if you wish) but it's something to consider, perhaps.

I came from a family where as a child I told my parents I disliked being around certain family members. I was over-ruled and made to spend time with them. They bad mouthed my parents, when I disagreed they badmouthed me, they were mean and petty and downright damaging. The hatred and antagonism they had for my parents was played out on me. My parents shrugged it off because “faaaaaaaamily”.

Please listen to your DD. Please cut these toxic people out of your lives.
If your DC are truly important to PILs they will find a way to see them without BIL. If BIL is more important to them then you really don’t want your kids spending time with PIL. Trust me.

I no longer speak to any of the family that were abusive or failed to protect me, that includes my parents. Don’t let that be your DDs future

Your DH can't see how utterly toxic his family is because he grew up with it so to him it's normal. It most definitely isn't though and only when he breaks away will he truly see it for what it is.

I wouldn't let any of them near my kids if I were you. BIL, because he's a nasty bully, and MIL because she's a manipulative enabler.

Sounds like I'd be cutting all of them out of my life.

OP- I have had a slightly different situation with part of the family who have chipped away at DD’s confidence with a mix of indifference & negativity & I deeply regret encouraging her to socialise with them.

They live some distance away & we are due to travel at the end of the month. DH has already said it will be ‘awkward’ seeing some relatives & not others but I have put my foot down & said it will be totally up to DD & he is welcome to visit on his own. I would suggest you set your own terms for visits & don’t put up with bad behaviour from the in-laws. Your priority is your own family unit. I have had years of second-guessing myself, hoping thing will improve-they never do!

I think MIL is as bad as BIL.If I was her I would be calling him out on his intolerable,abusive behaviour and telling him no way was he doing that in my home or with other members of my family...sadly she is not though so she is enabling him to continue,Drop them all OP and tell them why.You and your kids do not need this.

Nobody gets to demand alone time with your children. You do not have to allow them spend one minute in the same room as BIL and from now on this is the way I'd have it - zero contact with him and his wife. As for MIL I wouldn't leave them alone with her either as no doubt she'll invite BIL over regardless of your feelings on the matter. Your dd has already said she's not comfortable with BIL. That says it all. Anyone who treats you with disdain can fuck off! Hope your Dh can see that too.

He has absolutely no legal rights of any kind of your children, and it clearly isn't in their best interests to have a relationship with him.

*over not of

Your DD doesn't like him, therefore she should never have to spend any time with him. And if PIL don't like that, tough shit. As a PP said, BIL may not be a sexual abuser, but if he is a misogynist (which sounds likely: he's shitting the bed at being disobeyed by a woman) then he is probably vile to her in ways which she should never have to put up with.
As long as your H is on board with it all, change the plans for tomorrow and inform his family that PIL are welcome to visit you but they will not be permitted to take the children anywhere without you being present - and if they don't like it, tough shit.