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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Ignorance is no defence?

51 replies

Duckyduckyquackquack · 01/08/2019 11:15

Regarding knowing the laws of the country where you live.

I'm British and live in mainland Europe. I have fallen foul of the law here more than once, for things that I never considered might be a law.

For example, on buying a new car one must apply for a new registration number for the car. Not only would that not have occurred to me, it actually sounds quite illegal.

My MIL (from the country where I live) says I really should have read all the laws of the country and it's my responsibility to know the laws so I don't break them.

I totally agree with this in theory, but having to read a complex legal document that runs into hundreds of not thousands of pages to check I don't inadvertently break a law seems a bit extreme.

I'm not really sure how to frame the AIBU, but really to what extent should we know the laws of any country we are in, in order not to break them?

OP posts:
LIZS · 01/08/2019 11:21

Onus is on you to ask or research. So much is assumed you will just know. We lived abroad and expats regularly fell foul of recycling regulations. We did not realise we needed a tv licence as well as paying landlord for cable, until I got a scary knock on the door one evening.

TheFridgeRaider · 01/08/2019 11:23

It takes 5 min to google "What do I need to do when buying a car in xxx" or any other situation.
You don't need to read all legislation of that country... You need basics

scaryteacher · 01/08/2019 11:25

Quite often there is an expats site for the country which tells you in great detail what you need to do. Worth googling?

herculepoirot2 · 01/08/2019 11:26

I think that the principle that ignorance is no defence was developed in a time when most laws could be inferred by considering potential harm, and right versus wrong. I actually think the mantra is becoming a bit unfair in some cases.

herculepoirot2 · 01/08/2019 11:27

But then I also think that if you move to a new country you do have a responsibility to read up on these things.

Wishihad · 01/08/2019 11:29

Of course it's your responsibility.

Who elses would it be?

CalmFizz · 01/08/2019 11:30

I do think the onus is on the individual who makes a move to be as prepared as possible. Just like we expect young adults to learn how the real world is, paying bills/understanding laws etc. A move to a foreign country involves a period of ‘adolescence’ to equip yourself for a fulfilling life there.

katiedoc · 01/08/2019 11:33

Who else do you think should be responsible - if not you?

Would you feel the same about immigrants breaking British laws?

ImpracticalCape · 01/08/2019 11:33

I found out after 8 months of driving in Sydney that it's illegal to park on the 'wrong' side of the road, ie facing traffic. It totally shocked me and I couldn't remember if I'd actually done it or not prior to that. Same here in NZ so if you see a parking spot on your right you can't just nip in you have to keep driving until you find a handy roundabout or side road and turn back. It's a right pain!

Here in NZ it's illegal to drive without your driving licence on your person.

I'm ashamed to say I didn't research anything. We found these out totally accidentally.

Original poster
Duckyduckyquackquack · 01/08/2019 11:34

I've just tried googling it and looked on several well-known websites. None of them mention the registration change required, let alone another law I've fallen foul of regarding the interim plate which you apply for if you buy a car imported from elsewhere in mainland Europe. It looks identical to a standard plate except that it contains a certain number which indicates that the car must stay within the country's borders until it is replaced for a second time by a different agency.

I definitely understand the onus on the individual to understand the law, but how much googling would I have to do to be 100% sure that I haven't missed anything that I otherwise absolutely wouldn't have considered might even be an issue?

OP posts:
quietcontentment · 01/08/2019 11:34

Different countries, different laws. You move to a different country you are likely to follow different rules/laws.
You can't presume things are the way your used to doing it you need to find out what's the norm in a different country, obviously it can be a minefield so the alternative is makeing a mistake and learning from it.
Aybu it depends on whether your making efforts in general to fit in with their laws and this was an oversight, or if your just carrying on and living by the laws of the previous country your used to in which case you would be being unreasonable.

IAskTooManyQuestions · 01/08/2019 11:36

I'm lost with the car thing - surely when you go to the dealership, they get your numberplate? Ive never had to register it.

Most laws are commonsense, it will be the oddities like umm Not eating ice cream in high heels in Carmel California withouta permit:

Though often mistakenly thought of as an urban myth, the municipal code of Carmel bans wearing shoes having heels more than 2 inches in height or with a base of less than one square inch unless the wearer has obtained a permit for them.

Although the ice cream law was repealed in 1986.

No one would ever know all the laws of their own land. It would be impossible.

Original poster
Duckyduckyquackquack · 01/08/2019 11:37

Would you feel the same about immigrants breaking British laws?

Depends on the law I suppose. If it's something fairly universal like not stealing, I wouldn't be impressed. If it's a batshit law about parking in a certain direction, for example, I imagine I'd be completely sympathetic

OP posts:
Original poster
Duckyduckyquackquack · 01/08/2019 11:39

I'm lost with the car thing - surely when you go to the dealership, they get your numberplate? Ive never had to register it.

Here you have to do all that yourself, either once or twice depending on the origin of the car. That's why I had to learn from my mistakes: it never occurred to me that I had to do it!

OP posts:
coconuttelegraph · 01/08/2019 11:44

You probably won't get much sympathy as all MNers are perfect but I agree, you can't google everything, maybe there's a law that says you must always carry an umberella for example, would you be expected to somehow know that you needed to google that to find out.

I don't know how immigrants are expected to know all the little laws (obviously not basic stuff like stealing and murder)

ImpracticalCape · 01/08/2019 11:45

Okay so say I've travelled to NZ and want know about driving laws, like the many pp's above I am fastidious about these things.

I google 'driving rules in NZ'. There are many pages explaining driving on the left, signs in KM's etc but not one talks about parking only the left. In fact I only found it by clicking though several pages on the specific 'parking section' of the NZ transport agency website....

TheFridgeRaider · 01/08/2019 11:47

" xxx buying car"
Germany
First link on google
www.howtogermany.com/pages/buyingcar.html
France
First link on google
www.worldfirst.com/uk/blog/your-money/living-abroad/how-to-buy-a-car-in-france/
Spain
First link on google
www.worldfirst.com/uk/blog/your-money/living-abroad/buying-a-car-in-spain/

I could go on...

As an immigrant it is really up to you to check these things.

Brittany2019 · 01/08/2019 11:55

Why didn’t your DH tell you about it?

ImpracticalCape · 01/08/2019 11:58

@TheFridgeRaider and yet none of those websites talk about having to re-register the car with a new number plate as was the OP's predicament.

Granted OP may not be in Spain, Germany or France but I don't know what your point is.

CondeNasty · 01/08/2019 12:02

As I understand it in the UK ignorance can be a defence if it is reasonable that they did not know their conduct was wrong. IIRC it comes down to would the average person be aware of it rather than the specific individual. Otherwise you could have governments passing laws in secret and prosecuting the offenders!

Some other offences, such as benefit offences, state that the offender had to be aware that what they were doing was wrong. So ignorance could be a defence, albeit a fairly difficult one to stick to as merely asking why someone claimed benefit would gain a lot of proof that they were aware of the rules surrounding it.

TheFridgeRaider · 01/08/2019 12:06

@ImpracticalCape
They all say about admin. For example German one:
You will need proof of insurance and proof of ownership of the car (Kfz-Brief). You'll have to take these to the local motor vehicle department (Kfz-Zulassungstelle), and if everything is in order you'll be given your license plates.

ImpracticalCape · 01/08/2019 12:10

Fair enough. Read it twice missed that. Kind of a case in point!

ProfessorSlocombe · 01/08/2019 12:18

As I understand it in the UK ignorance can be a defence if it is reasonable that they did not know their conduct was wrong.

As gently and respectfully as I can suggest it, it's probably best you don't go to court with that, since you don't understand it.

For better, for worse. For richer for poorer, most jurisprudence around the world UK included (and this is an occasion where there's no need to distinguish England & Wales and Scotland) is based upon some common assumptions. One of which is that the law is published and understood in advance - so that a person can check before they undertake a course of action that it is legal. (Another is that a healthy sane adult is assumed to be responsible for their actions).

Angeliza · 01/08/2019 12:22

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Seahorseshoe · 01/08/2019 12:23

Imagine how hard it would've been before google. You can find out quick, to the point, answers on anything these days. So yabu.