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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Ignorance is no defence?

51 replies

Duckyduckyquackquack · 01/08/2019 11:15

Regarding knowing the laws of the country where you live.

I'm British and live in mainland Europe. I have fallen foul of the law here more than once, for things that I never considered might be a law.

For example, on buying a new car one must apply for a new registration number for the car. Not only would that not have occurred to me, it actually sounds quite illegal.

My MIL (from the country where I live) says I really should have read all the laws of the country and it's my responsibility to know the laws so I don't break them.

I totally agree with this in theory, but having to read a complex legal document that runs into hundreds of not thousands of pages to check I don't inadvertently break a law seems a bit extreme.

I'm not really sure how to frame the AIBU, but really to what extent should we know the laws of any country we are in, in order not to break them?

OP posts:
ProfessorSlocombe · 01/08/2019 12:29

Imagine how hard it would've been before google

Actually it was a lot easier. You wouldn't have a parade of posters that were wrong drowning out the facts ....

Naldorian · 01/08/2019 12:35

Wouldn't it be helpful for countries to produce leaflets for those coming to live in there, detailing the basic laws relating to different areas of living - education, recycling, cars. I mean sure you should do as much research as you can before going. Maybe they do produce something similar and this just wasn't included.

Original poster
Duckyduckyquackquack · 01/08/2019 12:36

The point is with Google that after looking at several websites my specific infraction wasn't mentioned at all, and if I hadn't known it could be a problem it would have satisfied me that I was doing the right thing. So Google is actually a hindrance rather than a help in this situation.

The PP who mentioned 'adolescence' is probably quite right - most people growing up in a country will have family and a community to help them with the rules, whereas those that arrive later have to figure it out on their own.

Not saying that this is an excuse, but that there's really no way to do it except read the entire rule book!

OP posts:
LIZS · 01/08/2019 12:53

And your oh did not look into it for you, was he raised where you are now?

Original poster
Duckyduckyquackquack · 01/08/2019 12:53

He is from this country, but it was before we got together

OP posts:
jackernanna · 01/08/2019 12:54

We don't ive in the UK and have had to get up to speed with the different (legal) ways of doing things here. It really isn't as simple as just googling - a lot of the sites that come up on page 1 will not be up-to-date. Asking on FB groups can also be a minefield as there will be lots of posters spouting "facts" which may have been true when they moved here, but are no longer the case. I don't know where the OP lives, but certainly in France the procedure for buying and registering a car has changed significantly even since we arrived. I can guarantee you that were I to ask a question on FB/at dinner/in the market/to the local farmer, I would get people categorically stating "You MUST do XYZ" and I would know that they are wrong.

Evilmorty · 01/08/2019 12:58

I agree with you. A hackney carriage has to, by law, carry a bale of hay and a sack of oats. Would someone be arrested for ignorance of the law for not all that in the boot? Would a police officer even know that one?

Brefugee · 01/08/2019 12:59

Wouldn't it be helpful for countries to produce leaflets for those coming to live in there, detailing the basic laws relating to different areas of living - education, recycling, cars.

Does the UK offer that?

When I moved here (EU country) I checked what I have to do - actually the place I went to work advised me on a lot of things, including what to do about my driving licence / car registration - and pestered friends and colleagues and so on until I knew what was what.

TheFridgeRaider · 01/08/2019 12:59

I usually go with an official gov websites in UK

Evilmorty · 01/08/2019 13:00

(Prior to 1976 that is Grin )

TheFridgeRaider · 01/08/2019 13:00

Does the UK offer that?

Nope. Or at least none of the immigrants are aware of it. 🤷

ProfessorSlocombe · 01/08/2019 13:26

The PP who mentioned 'adolescence' is probably quite right - most people growing up in a country will have family and a community to help them with the rules, whereas those that arrive later have to figure it out on their own.

The UK generally is an appallingly low education country. We teach stuff all about our legal, political and social welfare systems in schools, resulting in mass of people who "think" they know something, when in reality they knew nothing. To the extent that if they had to sit a citizenship test (like immigrants) they'd more than likely fail.

But who wants an educated population ? Troublemakers, the lot of them ...

CoffeenWalnut · 01/08/2019 14:15

In France I seem to recall there is a similar"park in the direction of the traffic rule". Only no-one takes any notice of it.
However, it is no longer compulsory to change the number plate on a second hand car if it has already been registered in France.

Zaphodsotherhead · 01/08/2019 14:22

As I understand it in the UK ignorance can be a defence if it is reasonable that they did not know their conduct was wrong

Not always a mistake to believe. Lots of us got our money back after being fined for driving in an inadequately signposted bus lane in the local town.

ProfessorSlocombe · 01/08/2019 14:36

Not always a mistake to believe. Lots of us got our money back after being fined for driving in an inadequately signposted bus lane in the local town

Not quite sure what that has to do with being ignorant of the law ?

ColaFreezePop · 01/08/2019 14:41

There are places in the UK where you have to park facing traffic and on a different side of the road each day. If you don't you get a parking ticket.

One of my friends' moved to such a road and luckily was told by a neighbour.

Yes it's shit if you go on holiday as you have to park elsewhere but the idea is to ensure only those who have a car or van are those who require regular use if the vehicle.

BreconBeBuggered · 01/08/2019 14:57

Some very dogmatic voices on this thread. Yes, of course, in general, it's advisable to acquaint oneself with the laws of a new country, but you only have to look at the questions posted on MN to see how easy it is to come unstuck or come across the wrong advice.

FishCanFly · 01/08/2019 15:39

You could claim ignorance of petty things, like smoking/drinking in public, or recycling. However, buying/selling cars is a pretty big thing, and yes, its on you to get acquainted with the procedure beforehand. Its not something "that slipped you mind"

ProfessorSlocombe · 01/08/2019 15:53

A demonstrated ignorance of the law might be a mitigating factor in deciding on sentence. But it is not, cannot, and will never be a defence to any criminal charge.

It's also a distinct possibility that some ignorance of the law could actually be an aggravating factor in sentencing. After all, if someone undertakes an activity that ends in their appearing in court, saying "I didn't realise it was illegal" could make things worse.

GazingIntoTheAbyss · 01/08/2019 16:50

Unless you have lived in another country like the OP, I doubt many would realise how easy it is to make an innocent, but potentially serious/costly mistake.

For example, how many British mums would think to google the implications of not reporting their child's lice/nits to the authorities?

I have come across a lot of lice/nits threads here on mn where the advice is to simply use a comb and conditioner over a couple of weeks and possibly let others know so that they can check their children.

Where I live in mainland Europe you would not be allowed to send your child back to nursery/school until you had used be an approved lice treatment.

You would also be obliged to contact the school immediately so that they could notify the health authority's infection control department.

Failure to do so would be a regulatory offence which carries a fine up to € 25,000 (yes, twenty five thousand euros!).

GazingIntoTheAbyss · 01/08/2019 16:58

Just wanted to add that the €25,000 is the maximum fine for repeat offending.

Original poster
Duckyduckyquackquack · 01/08/2019 22:30

For example, how many British mums would think to google the implications of not reporting their child's lice/nits to the authorities?

Blimey I had no idea. Am adding that to the list of unexpected rules, for future reference

OP posts:
Zaphodsotherhead · 02/08/2019 10:00

*Not always a mistake to believe. Lots of us got our money back after being fined for driving in an inadequately signposted bus lane in the local town

Not quite sure what that has to do with being ignorant of the law ?*

It's illegal to drive in a bus lane. But you can't know it's a bus lane if it's not adequately signposted. They were photographing numberplates and sending out automatic penalty notices to people who were unaware that the road rules had changed. The fines were overturned - you couldn't know you'd broken the 'no driving in a bus lane' law if you didn't know you were doing it.

ProfessorSlocombe · 02/08/2019 11:03

It's illegal to drive in a bus lane. But you can't know it's a bus lane if it's not adequately signposted. They were photographing numberplates and sending out automatic penalty notices to people who were unaware that the road rules had changed.

That has nothing to do with being ignorant of the law, and everything to do with the signage being wrong, and subsequent penalties unlawfully applied. If the signage had been correct then the penalties would have stood, not matter what drivers thought the sign meant.

As I said, probably not a good idea to sashay up to court and say "you can't do me, I didn't see that sign" .... (although people do - usually when they represent themselves). That said, you are more than free to, and cite "the internet" as proof.

ohcanada · 04/08/2019 18:41

I'm with you OP. Moved to Spain 10 years ago when the internet wasn't so fantastic, was hard to find out all these details. Although now for major things it is easy to find out all the necessary steps for cars, renting or buying houses, tax and finances etc etc so the major things are quite clear.

For kid related stuff, the most useful thing to me was making mum friends here and talking to them constantly about every little stage as not to miss anything! I picked up so much about schooling that I'd missed from the schools communication as it was just common knowledge! (Even my husband didn't think I needed telling about some things as its just the done thing here!)

One thing that caught me off guard was that here you are expected to carry your ID (they have identity photo id here, separate from driving licenses and passports). I was told by the police I should always carry my passport on me, which seemed ridiculous for popping to the shops or taking the dog for a walk!

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