To ask for help with possible qualification fraud?

[Shambu]

I've discovered a relation of a close family member is promoting himself to his clients as having an Hons degree he does not have.

I've known him for 20 years, and his qualification was a much lower status one which he didn't finish.

It is featured on his email on all communication with clients.

How would I find out? I contacted the institution to find out if they offered that course at the time, but I cannot make a request for specific information without his being informed.

I’m allowed to put my law qualifications on my email sign from work (and it’s on our work website) but because they’re not employing me as a lawyer I have to state non practising to ensure that no one thinks I’m giving legal advice. I’m happy to do a review of docs etc from a legal perspective but anything needs to be run past a “real” lawyer if you like.

ACA is ICAEW . You have ACA after your name when your first qualify and become FCA later on if you're that bothered. The same applies with ACCA who can become FCCAs later. Nobody in the non accounting world know the difference.

I know numbers.

@MRex

“@Oblomov19 - it is completely relevant actually, because if he got an ACCA qualification he could convert it to Oxford-Brookes Hons. Then he is genuinely an Hons even though he didn't complete his first degree 20 years ago.”

But the degree doesn’t qualify him for anything, so still not relevant to him giving advice?

So. For example. He's been in the job 20 years. 20 Employee annual appraisals? Passed his 15 papers + for his ICAEW. But he lied about having a degree? Or it being Hons? Or he didn't complete it and graduate?

But what do you intend to do now OP?

Quite Cherry !!

So when Sil comes to live with OP because she's lost her house, Marriage, etc. Her husband can't work.
I'm sure all will be well!

Thi s is very odd. Unpleasantly so.

He's been with his company a long time, so highly likely he is capable of his job. Your sister will know what he studied,and what his qualifications are.

Why do you wish to secretly investigate her husband. So you can't tell her he's a liar?

What's the score here? Are you jealous? Their income is more than yours? What's going on? Because whatever it is, this is not about care for your sister. Something much less pleasant is driving you.

I'm going to disagree with some people here.

'Accountant' is a very contested term, especially in the corporate sector. If you do AAT, you have a very comprehensive training, you can certainly be employed as an accountant, however you can not call yourself 'chartered' (ACA) or 'certified' (ACCA). You then have CIMA which is seen as the equivalent of the chartered bodies. These are seen as equivalent to postgraduate.

AAT is seen as the first year of an undergraduate or an NVQ level 4 (but is actually a very decent qualification). ATT is similar with a taxation focus as opposed to book-keeping or accounting.

Now, I'm lazy. I've got an undergraduate degree and a number of passes in the ACCA. It's got to expensive for me to carry on tuition and with exams. I am very clear with where I am in the syllabus. I've been appointed by a charted accountant to work as a management accountant and before that I was appointed as a project accountant.

The difference is that whilst I am not chartered, the roles didn't need chartered status for those jobs. Between my exams and my degree (not accounting specific), they made the decision I was competent enough to do the job. Clients have always gained copies of my degree and exam history. It protects them, it protects me.

Now if some guy has said he has a degree in Latin, then the employer will then consider him or her graduate calibre and look at his experience and exams passed in a different light. If it's a relevant degree he's holding, then professionally accredited or not, they can take some comfort that 'a 2.1 from Portsmouth' is going to have some value (or not).

With accounting and taxation, ethics comes into play. Most people don't want a fraudster doing their books.

It's quite a sly move to claim a degree, because he won't get black-listed straight away from a CCAB body. If I came across someone like this in my workplace, I would shop him into the rozzers myself.

I’m struggling to see why people are defending a liar who is claiming to have qualifications that he doesn’t, who is essentially putting people at risk who are using him as a source of expertise. I’d imagine if their own partner was badly advised by a crooked accountant or if they had their own teeth removed by an unqualified dentist or had their sister’s life affected by a conman then they’d be incensed if people knew and thought ‘ah, screw it - let’s not dob in the fraudster’.

I’d act, because I’m moral.

Because it’s only a degree Tanya. Anyone who would use that to determine he has a source of expertise is a bit of an idiot.

And more importantly, there is no evidence people do trust him based on his fake degree. It’s only OP who thinks they might

In accountancy which I think is what you are not very subtly hinting at you can do a 2 year Accounts Technician Course
The one that I did allowed me to jump straight to the second year of chartered accountancy after my first year due to my results. My chartered accounting course was completed part time most lectures were on a Friday late afternoon to evening done at the weekend and done by distance learning and was accredited by a university

From the outside to someone who doesn’t know me that well because I do not care to tell them everything it would appear that I am claiming to have a university qualification when I didn’t complete my lower level course

Could this be the same with you BIL?

Furthermore even if I had not finished my chartered course I could still call myself a part qualified accountant

For the 3rd time OP, what do you want to achieve from all this?

As you have avoided answering this question from myself and PP I will answer for you.

I intend to tell my sister that the fella she has been married to for 20 years is a fraud and a liar. Even though he is senior, those letters after his name dont mean a thing. The fat bank balance you have could be stripped from you in an instant. The big house the car the holidays and the CLOTHES ALL GONE. And then where will you be left? With nothing but me, me I tell you MEEEEEEEEE!

Do what you like OP I'm outta here.

Part qualified (or qualified by experience) doesn’t mean anything and is a personal irritation. I wouldn’t hire either.

How did you find it out?

He's a lawyer isn't he

Passthecherrycoke, it wouldn't make financial sense to have an entire corporate team of chartered accountants. In a practice environment perhaps.

It's also good career progression to have an assistant accountant, an AP lead who know the industry and to be able to progress. Quite frankly an AAT level guy can do management accounting to a similar standard as a chartered/certified member.

I could go on, about where I have had to bail out a couple of chartered accountants who ballsed up but I would just be feeding my own ego I guess.

I have a whole finance team. The accountant roles are qualified, the assistants are studying and the finance assistants have no qualification. Of course it wouldn’t make sense to have a whole divisions of qualified people but they all do different jobs. The management and financial accountants do have to be qualified though. making it a criteria of the role raises the standard of applicants IME

Also

“Quite frankly an AAT level guy can do management accounting to a similar standard as a chartered/certified member.”

This isn’t true as AAT doesn’t train anyone in management accounting. It’s a good qualification but if you want to be an accountant you need to study ACA/ ACCA/ CIMA

Passthecherrycoke:

"Part qualified (or qualified by experience) doesn’t mean anything and is a personal irritation. I wouldn’t hire either."

Sorry- I should caveat that by saying I wouldn’t hire them for qualified accountants roles. I still get recruiters pushing QBE candidates and they don’t get that you can’t be qualified by experience. You either are qualified or you aren’t. Its just a made up thing (by recruiters probably)

I'm PQ ACCA myself, but I fear you're talking nonsense about the AAT relevance to management accounting (unless you are talking about something more strategic) . At which point you could well get into the ACA vs CIMA argument.

www.aat.org.uk/management-accounting-week-2018

An ACCA candidate is hardly leap and bounds above an AAT candidate in terms of management accounting skills.

It's difficult for me to debate properly without knowing your industry what you quantify as part of an assistant management accountants job and what you quantify as a 'accountants' job (to use your speak, if not the majority of the profession).

I would agree that financial reporting must sit with a fully qualified member. I wouldn't disagree there especially if it is a decent sized organisation. But then, you wouldn't really want a CIMA qualified person there either?

@Passthecherrycoke

*@MRex “@Oblomov19- it is completely relevant actually, because if he got an ACCA qualification he could convert it to Oxford-Brookes Hons. Then he is genuinely an Hons even though he didn't complete his first degree 20 years ago.”

But the degree doesn’t qualify him for anything, so still not relevant to him giving advice?*

It's relevant to whether he's lying or not and (related) whether he's breaching ethical codes of a personal body.

OP said:
He doesn't state the university just the qualification.
This is why some of us are suggesting caution because the "Hons" might relate to a valid on-the-job qualification and not the course 20 years ago. BIL might have completed the qualification while travelling all over the country for work, which is why his SIL doesn't know about it.

1ststranger I’ve seen enough poor management accounting functions to see what happens when the department has a significant number of unqualified staff, so I don’t think we’re ever going to trust each others experience enough to agree.

Shades of the recent story of the psychiatrist inventing a medical degree from NZ then practicing here for years prescribing, diagnosing and sectioning.

Think you're getting short shrift OP. If this person were a doctor, as above, I suspect you'd receive different answers. People work hard for their qualifications and the industry support associated with them, frauds devalue this.