To think Charlotte Lucas had the right idea

[GreenPillows]

With marrying Mr Collins?

I reread P&P recently through less romantic/more cynical eyes after a bit of age and life experience. I used to think what she did was awful but now I’ve changed my mind.

AIBU?

One of the (many) things that would be horrible about marrying Mr Collins was that whenever you had guests you'd see them rolling their eyes or falling asleep when he was talking.

I’m sure at one point in the BBC version she gives him an evil look and it stops him

I now really really want to see this brought up into the 21st century with Mrs Bennet reading Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother and sending her daughters to Manderin Lessons and Mary being emo daughter.

I like to think that Mr Wickham was sent to Australia to guard prisoners and took the odious Lydia with him.

On balance I think she made the right choice for the time. I've often secretly wondered if a few years after the end of the book, once Mr Collins had inherited Longbourne, did he perhaps meet with an unfortunate illness or accident? A touch of arsenic here, a slip under a coach wheel there...Charlotte was quite calculating really, I'd like to think she had a bit of tactical murder in her

I now really really want to see this brought up into the 21st century with Mrs Bennet reading Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother and sending her daughters to Manderin Lessons and Mary being emo daughter

Have you read Eligible? It’s a modern rewrite by Curtis Sittenfeld. And it’s not a million miles away from this.

I thought it was v enjoyable and I’m not normally a fan of the reimaginings.

I've got the book out and have been busy skimming through.

Lady Catherine is Darcy's Aunt via his mother, hence the engagement to her daughter since infancy. She must be from a decent class of gentlewoman, but may have elevated herself further through marriage to Sir Lewis de Bourgh. She certainly has a meticulous obsession with maintaining everyone else below her and securing her daughter through marriage. An alternative background is that she is from old money and her husband from the rising class of industrialists and trades, similar to Sir Lucas.

The book states that the Bennets paid little attention to economy in the early days in the expectation of bearing a son who could support a widowed Mrs Bennet and her younger children. By the time they had five daughters and despaired of a son, "it was then too late to be saving" Also, "Mrs Bennet had no turn for economy and her husband's love of independence had alone prevented their exceeding their income". Mrs Bennet cares about the security of marrying their daughters off, but has no great concern for the suitability of the matches. Although marriage was the final respectable option for Lydia, Mrs Bennet had little concern for the severity of the situation and their long-term finance and happiness and were supported long term through Elizabeth and Jane. Her conduct deters a better class of suitor, and her excesses for entertaining and balls aren't an advantage to a family in limited circumstances.

It is interesting that the entail is specific to the family. Lady Catherine's family does permit female inheritance. Anne has the advantage of being an only child not splitting the inheritance. The Bennets would be stretched thin anyway.

She must be from a decent class of gentlewoman, but may have elevated herself further through marriage to Sir Lewis de Bourgh. She certainly has a meticulous obsession with maintaining everyone else below her and securing her daughter through marriage. An alternative background is that she is from old money and her husband from the rising class of industrialists and trades, similar to Sir Lucas.

No, she’s the daughter of an Earl. She married down in class terms.

Ahh, I've been skimming through as it's a bit scattered through the book... not what I should be doing at all!

Lots of people saying she would have no choice but to be a governess but that is at least a paying job.

It was also one where you could become vulnerable in regards to the male members of the household. As the hired help it wasn't just the education or care of their children that some men were after in those times. It was not unknown for a governess to be thrown out after becoming pregnant by the head of the household, or an older male offspring who was still living at home.

This still happens in many countries, young girls are married to older men, often relations.

Mr Collins was not an older man though.

Charlotte's father Sir William Lucas would always have been referred to as Sir William for short, never 'Sir Lucas'. That's the case for all knights and baronets.

I have the impression he was in trade and did well etc, maybe had connections, so was knighted. His wife would be Lady Lucas for life, but no title could be passed down. Not sure how wealthy the family would have been, but probably above having daughters having to become governesses maybe? Although Charlotte would have become dependent on her brother/s if she hadn't married. In the same sort of way as Jane Austen herself did.

The life of a governess was awful, they would have been stuck between the servants downstairs and the family, yet often patronised and abused by snobbish family members. This happened to Anne Bronte, and I think she wrote about it in her novel 'Agnes Grey'. It was not at all like a modern day job as a teacher! Of course some families would have been kind, like Mr Woodhouse and Emma were to their Miss Taylor, who in her thirties managed to make a good marriage (with Emma's help of course!)

@LaurieMarlow - thanks for the tip, searching for the kindle version right now

Another poster also stated that Mr Collins was older, so Charlotte wouldn't have had to wait many years for his death. Well he certainly acts like an old fuddy duddy, but I'm pretty sure it's mentioned that he is in fact a 'young man', and I have a vague memory that his age is given as twenty-five, so in fact slightly younger than Charlotte.

@BrightYellowDaffodil I always wondered that too. And by her comment that "she had never learnt to play the piano, but if she had she would have been a proficient" i believe genteel poverty would have been her future too if she hadn't made a good marriage. She was so irritated by Lizzie because she knew Darcy felt for Lizzie what her husband had felt for her. Enough for them to marry into a much less well off family. In the case of LC, one that couldn't afford piano classes for the accomplishment of their daughters.

But SVRT it has been already established that Lady Catherine is the daughter of an Earl (or possibly, less likely, a duke). So true poverty for her (genteel or not) would have been very unlikely. Sir Lewis de Bourgh seems to have been very rich though, so a welcome marriage. Same goes for her sister Lady Anne and the Darcys.

I assume she didn't learn the piano as she just didn't fancy it. Not because her parents couldn't afford it. But of course has to state that if she had she would have been proficient at it , due to her 'natural taste'.! And makes the excuse of her poor state of health for her own daughter's not learning.

And both Sir Lewis d B and Mr Darcy senior would have been highly honoured to marry members of the nobility. So not at all like how the unreconstructed Mr Darcy felt about lowering himself when he originally proposed to Lizzy. No comparison.

So often when I have read P&P I have ended up longing for Mr Bennett to save some money in order to give his poor girls a bit of a dowry! I think it is very cleverly set up by Austen so that when you really think about it, it's atrocious that they have quite a good income and social standing, but his lack of care for money (and it is his, he is as the head of household in charge of it) means the girls literally have a few hundred pounds each or something.

I get a bit 'save 20% of your income and give those poor girls a few thou each!!!!' It could easily have been done.

I also agree Mrs Bennett, to the best of her abilities, is trying to provide for her daughters' future. Although why she is all right with Wyckham is anyone's guess.

I suppose from her point of view if ANY of the girls marry well, they can be relied on to let the other four not actually starve. If you read lots of books right up until the early twentieth century, like Making of a Marchioness, Below Stairs, even Ballet Shoes, all have genteel women unable to work but unable to make ends meet.

I’ve always thought Charlotte was probably gay. And in love with Elizabeth

Lady Catherine is absolutely at the top of the tree socially and economically from birth. She’s just a rampaging snob.

Although why she is all right with Wyckham is anyone's guess.

Mrs Bennett isn't a clever woman, though, is she? Although she's quite ruthless in some ways, she's taken in by charm, and that's what Wyckham must have had.

But why do people keep suggesting that Charlotte was gay? There isn't any indication of this. Her situation is that she is unfortunately not good looking and getting on a bit (27! Ha!) in their terms, that's why she decides to make a pragmatic match with Mr Collins. She knows it's no good waiting for her prince to come, ain't happening. Even for a good looking girl it might easily never happen.

SoonerthanIthought Re. Charlotte pursuing Mr C. - I'm thinking of the bit where she sets out to meet him 'accidentally' in the lane; also where she talks to him all evening, which Elizabeth interprets as her kindly taking Mr C. off her hands, but Austen says (something like) Charlotte was saving Elizabeth from Mr Collins' advances because she wanted to secure them for herself.

We know that Col Fitzwilliam is the younger son of an Earl, so that seems to confirm that Lady Catherine was an Earl's daughter.

Agree that it was not lack of money that prevented Lady C from learning the piano. I suspect it was a combination or laziness and a fear that she wouldn't be any good at it. Much safer to assert that you would have been brilliant had you learned, than to learn and risk not being very good!

As far as Sir William Lucas is concerned, he made a 'tolerable fortune' and was knighted. But Charlotte was one of several children, so on the assumption that at least one of them was male (I don't think we are told), there wouldn't be much for Charlotte.

Someone mentioned Charlotte being pregnant. I don't remember that from the book. Clearly time I re-read it.

I too am a fan of Mary and think her and Mr Collins might have worked quite well. I think the BBC series hints at this too?

Mrs Bennet, of all people, hints at it in the novel. After Elizabeth has rejected him, Mrs Bennet ponders that Mary might be more inclined to accept him, as she seems to rate him more highly than the others. From what I recall of the BBC version I think they add to this by having Mary look upset when Charlotte's engagement is announced.

Personally, I don't think it would have worked out very well because Mary would have got right up Lady Catherine's nose and wouldn't have a clue how to handle her. Marrying Mr Collins is tantamount to marrying Lady Catherine - and to get along with her, you need either to be completely grovelling and subservient like Mr C. or sensible enough to play along just far enough like Charlotte. Mary had too high an opinion of herself to be subservient; and lacked the common sense and self-awareness to play along.

Neither exactly U or NU. Under the circumstances of the time, it might have been better, financially and socially, to be a wife even of a ghastly person like Mr Collins than an 'old maid' in the early 19th century; so I don't exactly blame her. But she was an intelligent lively person who deserved much better. To be honest, he always reminds me a bit of Iain Duncan Smith!

Yes. Charlotte definitely pursued Mr Collins.

"Charlotte's kindness extended farther than Elizabeth had any conception of; its object was nothing less than to secure her from any return of Mr Collins's addresses, by engaging them towards herself."

I've just re-read a bit and it is clear that Charlotte had brothers as well as sisters. The whole family was delighted at the match and it says that the boys were "relieved from their apprehension of Charlotte's dying an old maid." (Presumably because one of them would have to provide her with a home and financial support.)