To think Charlotte Lucas had the right idea

[GreenPillows]

With marrying Mr Collins?

I reread P&P recently through less romantic/more cynical eyes after a bit of age and life experience. I used to think what she did was awful but now I’ve changed my mind.

AIBU?

We don't find out what happens to Mary in the book, but Austen said (in a letter iirc) that she did no better than one of her uncle Philips' clerks, and Kitty settled down with a clergyman not far from Pemberley.

Mrs Bennett was a shrewd woman in her way- if she lived now, she'd be hothousing those girls with extra tuition for scholarships to private schools and mandarin classes on a Saturday.

Love this, absolutely on-point comparative social commentary.

I think that when you read the characters of Mrs and Mr Bennett side-by-side, and look at the fact that he married lower for attraction, it's likely that Mrs Bennett started out as a pretty, amusing, engaging personality, who was driven to despair by an emotionally absent, parentally/financially negligent husband - and the crushing stress of her knowledge of the implications of that for her daughters.

Tldr; Mr Bennett sucks. Mrs Bennett would be implored to hire a good solicitor and LTB.

If it was today - yabu.

However for the time - yanbu.

She was older than average for the type of family she was in to have not married. She was 27y and saw no future romantic interest ahead of her. She made a choice : marriage - which would increase her income, access to a goo home and all the benefits which marriage brought in those days - or spinsterhood. The latter was not really aspired to and not a choice a woman would make if she had other options usually.

On the other hand - Mr Fucking Collins in your actual fucking bed.

They'd have had separate rooms so it would only be for the odd night, or even just part of a night, for his 'marital rights.' And I suspect once she'd had a small handful of children, and a son for sure, she would put a stop to those visits once and for all.

A great and practical choice saving her from a miserable future as a dependent spinster. Sure he’s an idiot but she established her private sitting room early on and told Lizzie it was going ok.

How old was Lady Catherine? Charlotte’s life would have been infinitely better once Lady C died. I suppose only late 30s/early 40s as well, given her daughter was probably only Lizzie’s age or thereabouts.

From a pragmatic perspective Charlotte has done pretty well even by today’s standards. Granted day-to-day life was physically harder, childbirth was much more risky, simple infections could kill you and infant mortality was high.

All that notwithstanding though, Charlotte had financial security, a doting husband, help with domestic chores including cooking, respect in the community and children and chickens to tend to. She wasn’t stuck as a lone parent, working a job that she was over-qualified for to earn enough money to keep herself and the kids alive, rushing from work to childcare and coming home to a cold house with everyone hungry and whingy and tired.

This is such an interesting discussion.

I too am a fan of Mary and think her and Mr Collins might have worked quite well. I think the BBC series hints at this too?

I see Charlotte as a gay character.
She didn't want to marry anyone but knew that her future security depended on it.
She chose a man she only had to see once or twice a day (meal times?) - he's busy fannying around the rest of the time.
He gave her the financial security women needed in those days.

On the other hand - Mr Fucking Collins in your actual fucking bed. Can you imagine

They would have had their own rooms. After having children she would have locked the door on him forever.

Awful time to live.

The lack of status of single women is brought out when Lydia tells her older sisters that she has precedence over them because she is married, despite the circumstances of her marriage.

Maybe Mr.Collins was gay too?!
The arrangement would have suited them both!

I often read that Mrs Bennet was shrewd, but i am not so sure. Yes she wanted her daughters married asap, but I honestly think that was as much about status as it was about the entail. Unmarried dds were a social embarrassment as well as a burden in those days. If she were truly shrewd she would have altered her own off-putting behaviour and ensured that her dds had accomplishments and manners that would attract a decent suitor. She probably couldn't help being vulgar, but aside from attempting to throw her dds in the path of rich men, she did no more than her husband to promote truly their interests.

YANBU.

Charlotte’s actions have seemed far more sensible as I’ve got older.
The first time I read P&P I didn’t have much knowledge about the reality of life for women back then, so was measuring Charlotte more by today’s standards, where of course a woman has options to build a decent life outside marriage.

Back then, a woman of Charlotte’s social class had very few options outside marriage, and most of those options would leave her dependent on the charity of others. Mr Collins is financially stable, and provided you can put up with a husband who’s a buffoon (and Charlotte knew about that from the outset), he doesn’t seem to have character flaws that would make Charlottes life a misery.

Unlike Whickham. He's absolutely appalling as husband material and Lydia is clearly doomed to a miserable marriage at best.

I’ve got a lot more sympathy for Mrs Bennet now too. Her behaviour is driven by an awareness of how precarious things are for her daughters if they don’t marry before Mr Bennet dies. She’s not doing a very effective job of helping them towards marriage and financial security, true, but she’s at least trying. Whereas Mr Bennet is essentially sticking his head in the sand and pretending that there’s nothing to worry about.

Firstly, what a brilliant thread!

I agree with @ChazsBrilliantAttitude ‘s excellent point. Lydia (as would befit her personality) announces to Jane that “...you must go lower because I am a married woman”. When you lived in such a stratified society, imagine how grindingly awful if that was a running thread to your entire life. Always the lowest, with the knowledge that it would only get worse. Social circles were small, and almost everyone would have known a “Miss Bates”; a pitied figure of charity, so Charlotte pulled a blinder (to use the modern parlance) in avoiding that fate.

And, as PPs have said, she was clearly a smart woman so if she could play to Lady Catherine’s sense of what was proper she could easily have kept Mr Collins firmly at arm’s length.

As an aside, I've always wondered what Lady Catherine’s origins were. I’d bet she wasn’t as high-born as she’d like others to think, particularly borne out by her liking “the preservation of rank” (i.e. I’m above you now and I want you to know it) and her insistence on marrying her daughter off into the established Darcys. Lord de Bourgh seems long gone at the time the book is set, but I wonder if she married into his money?

As she was Lady Catherine, and not merely Lady de Bourgh, this means that she had a title in her own right. And was originally Lady Catherine de Vere for example. This means that she is the daughter of a Duke or an Earl.

It is mentioned that her sister, Darcy's mother was Lady Anne Darcy, although her husband was only a Mr Darcy. Women could not pass on titles. Except for a queen in her own right I suppose.

Love this thread. I initially thought Yabu as Mr Collins is so repulsive but yes in context the alternative is worse

@SNorth, that’s an excellent point. I hadn’t thought of it that way but you’re right, the use of her first name indicates she had a title herself. Of course, that doesn’t means she didn’t marry into the de Bourghs for money; there’s been many an impoverished aristocrat looking to shore up the family finances. Perhaps Catherine and Anne could have been the forerunners of the Bennett sisters, needing to marry well despite their outward position?

Hmmm. I have been pondering this and am realising that a lot of the reasons for marrying Mr Collins were based on social status rather than just money. Lots of people saying she would have no choice but to be a governess but that is at least a paying job. After all plenty of poorer girls had no choice but to go and work for richer families.
I think both the Bennett parents were negligent in not preparing their girls to have a plan B and focusing so hard on status. But then my female ancestors would always have worked-farming, dressmaking, trading etc, so the idea of maintaining one's social status just isn't in me!

If Colonel Fitzwilliam is Darcy's and Anne de Bourgh's cousin then he must be the second son of Catherine and Anne Darcy's sibling. It is likely to be a brother inheriting the title of Earl Fitzwilliam (thus Darcy's forename and the Colonel's surname).

If their brother is an Earl then it was unlikely that they would be poor but rather brought an extra prestige to two untitled but respectable families.

Lots of people saying she would have no choice but to be a governess but that is at least a paying job.

But it’s not stable and independent in the way that we understand a job.

She would have been dependent on her male relations to find it, no employment rights or guarantees of income, at the mercy of the family in terms of basic needs being met, could have ended anytime, less feasible as she got older.

It was a shit option and only chosen by those with no other choices. Assuming her family could afford it, living off their charity would have been preferable.

Yes to the lack of status and being dependent on the goodwill of your brothers (and their wives! see Sense and Sensibility for how that can work out) if you remained unmarried. But also maybe Charlotte wanted dc - and obviously had no prospect of that without marriage.

We look at the economic and social arguments for Mr Collins now and they're certainly strong - but presumably (some) women actively wanted dc, as they do now?

One of the (many) things that would be horrible about marrying Mr Collins was that whenever you had guests you'd see them rolling their eyes or falling asleep when he was talking.

This still happens in many countries, young girls are married to older men, often relations.

I agree Charlotte made an informed decision, I think she was 27 - this was considered old in JA’s time.

I understand it now I'm older too, though I found it profoundly depressing in the 1995 TV adaptation (I was 20 then).

You'd hope women can do better nowadays but in that time, certainly it was the right choice.

I agree with you OP. I’ve thought about it a lot over the years and my opinion is now that she made a wise decision.