to think that people have no idea how to apply for jobs?!

[myteenytinyteapot]

Just that really. Hiring for a senior admin person at the moment and have had hundreds of applications but honestly only about four shortlistable ones. I have had:

• CVs which include full-length glamour model style photographs of applicants
• CVs without cover letters when the advert clearly asks for a cover letter
• CVs and cover letters riddled with spelling and grammatical errors
• CVs which are 20 pages long and go into loads of detail about the hobbies and interests of the applicant. Also hardly anyone uses page numbers!
• Cover letters which are obviously just generic copied and pasted mass send out jobs - "I am writing to apply for the position advertised". Couldn't even be arsed to put in the job title!
• People applying who don't have any of the essential requirements listed

AIBU that I'm not surprised people can't get jobs if this is the general standard considered acceptable?!

Oh , Just saw the full length image one and the 20 pages plus CVs etc .. That is taking the piss .

OP, going back to the applicant who put “Dear Sirs” on her letter. How would you have wished her to have addressed it? There is a problem in that “Dear Madams” is obviously wrong and conjures up all sorts of inappropriate images, “Dear Ladies” sounds twee and patronising, and “Dear Sir/Madam” or “Dear Madam” is addressing the letter to one person not to the whole organisation.

My personal approach would be to find out the name of the individual to whom my letter should be addressed (from website or a phone call) and use that- is that what you had in mind?

To respond to a PP, the legal profession (I’m a lawyer) is indeed clinging on to “Dear Sirs” but only in one very specific context: when you are writing to an opposing firm in litigation because in that context you have to address the whole firm, not any individual. We consider it a convention that has lost its gender association over the years (in the same way that female lawyers in the US style themselves “Carla D. Jones Esq.”)

If we are writing to a client we use their name, or if writing to another lawyer eg when negotiating a contract we also use the name of the individual lawyer acting on the other side. The “Sirs” thing is just for formal inter-firm communications.

(A million other lawyers will probably jump on here now and say that they do not use Dear Sirs any more but, rightly or wrongly, it is definitely still the norm in the majority of firms, including ones with very admirable diversity initiatives and female managing partners)

To be honest, I never mind the inaccurate applications. It takes seconds to remove them, and if it helps them play the soul-destroying jobseekers game, then good for them. Been there, done that.

What depresses me is seeing applications that do list the qualifications and experience we need, but haven't bothered with a cover letter.

@floribunda18
The applications I am filling are asking if they can contact refs prior to interview. I am not currently working so I tick YES.
I am using my last permanent employer and a line manager in a volunteer role I do (which is relevant to the job)

Those of you who say you have excellent CVs and cover letters but aren't even getting interviews, whereabouts in the country are you?

I live in London and I have honestly never had any issue getting interviews. I certainly do not spend 5-10 hours on a job application either, that seems excessive to me.

I mean everyone is different and naturally this relates to the fact that I tend to recruit for fairly junior roles, but here is the basic format of what I like in a cover letter:

Dear XXXX (we always put a name in the job ad so applicants can address someone directly),

I am writing to apply for the role of XXXX as advertised XXX. Having read the job description and person specification, I believe my skills and experience are an excellent fit.

I then like to see the essential criteria listed and met, for instance:

Excellent ICT skills
I have advanced working knowledge of all MS Office packages including Word, Outlook and Excel. In my current role I also use Salesforce. Additionally, I am quick to learn new technologies and am confident troubleshooting basic ICT issues.

Able to work under own initiative with minimal supervision
In my current role at XXXX, my line manager is frequently out of the office travelling and trusts me to manage my own time and to prioritise my workload according to the needs of the business.

And so on, with the desirable criteria referred to as well if they meet them. If they don't meet an essential criterion, I still like them to mention it as it may not be a deal breaker. For example "Although I don't have X skill, I do have Y skill and would be willing to learn X"

@WhenOneFacePalmDoesntCutIt

It's an agency in a very niche industry that I've been working in for the past 10 years.
Doing an entry level recruitment role would not have taught me anymore than I've learned from jumping in and doing it myself, alongside some recruitment courses.
In fact, from what I've seen from looking at recruitment jobs - I'd have been making tea and cold calling clients in my first year, so I decided to learn the hard way.

It's been a shock, but a great experience and I've managed to fill every position given to us and all my candidates have passed their probation - which just about makes up for the slog of finding those candidates in the pile of glamour pics and text speak CVs

Surely the format of the CV should be completely irrelevant and the content is the point, as long as it is succinct, legible and someone has cared to check the spelling and grammar.

Actually it is not. If you are going through 100 CV's, the main thing you want to know is are they a close match for the job to deserve a close look. That's why they say always start with your last job first.

One of my bugbears when last job hunting was the companies asking for degrees when you didn't need one to do the job!

OP, going back to the applicant who put “Dear Sirs” on her letter. How would you have wished her to have addressed it?

Given that the advert said please send your application to Ms Jane Jones at [email protected], I'd have expected the applicant to address it to Ms Janes Jones.

If a person isn't specified on an ad, I prefer to whom it may concern over Dear Sirs, Dear Sir/Madam, or Dear Madam

@myteenytinyteapot

I'm in North Wales, which I know is rural, but I speak Welsh which is the major barrier to recruitment around here

I prefer to whom it may concern over Dear Sirs, Dear Sir/Madam, or Dear Madam

You are one recruiter. Do you represent all recruiters in all industries? Does it really make a difference if it is ‘to whom it may concern’ as opposed to ‘Dear Sirs’? I appreciate you have to narrow things down somehow, but that feels ridiculously petty.

You also state you want the person spec covered in the covering letter. Why? Surely that is covered in the ‘tell us how you meet the person spec’ part of the application form?

CanILeavenowplease

Have you read my posts? Application is via CV and cover letter. There is no application form.

Good grief. I've been accused of being from the 1955's legal profession.

I am neither.

If you're worried your English isn't up to scratch or you're unsure about the proper salutations, this is a good jumping-off point: www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/letters-emails-written-english.html HTH

What a shame the ignorant appear to be in a position to judge those with the knowledge. :)

BeckyWithTheSplitEnds if a job advert asks specifically for you to address your application to Jane Jones and you address it to Dear Sirs, do you not think that might suggest you haven't bothered to read said job ad?

Ah, I get the need for the covering letter. But that still doesn’t explain why ‘dear sirs’ is worse than ‘to whom it may concern’.

CanILeavenowplease

Well it might not always be. But if you are applying for a role at a women's charity, when one quick glance at the website tells you it is staffed entirely by women, then using "Dear Sirs" seems, to put it mildly, a little shortsighted.

@BeckyWithTheSplitEnds, cling on to outmoded forms of address if it so suits you. No skin off my nose!

Bless.

Requesting references prior to interview is more common in education due to Safer Recruitment (safeguarding).

Ah, I get the need for the covering letter. But that still doesn’t explain why ‘dear sirs’ is worse than ‘to whom it may concern’.

Because oftentimes.......it isn't a Sir!

From that helpful link provided...

' Sir/Madam – you start your letter with “Dear Sir or Madam” when you don’t know to whom your letter should be addressed; for example, if you’re writing to the general university admissions department and don’t know exactly who would be responsible for the handling of your enquiry.'

When I was in sixth form I had a Saturday job in a local, upmarket, department store. A boy I'd been to school with applied for a job on one of the concessions. His application form had been filled out in pencil and, in the 'interests' section, he'd written "going pub."

He did not get the job.

It is a bit off topic but I just finished an interview and the feedback I got was that i am "refreshingly honest". I'm not sure of that's actually a praise or a British way of saying that I messed it up.

Whether or not "dear sirs" has lost it's literal gender representation in the eyes of some does not change the fact it is a male word harping back to a time when the professional work force was largely men. Most other sectors have managed to obliterate it from business use so I'm not sure why the legal sector has failed to do so. The only time I come across it is when very old men write to me, my profession was typically a male dominated academic one so I have no doubt they assume they are addressing a man.

How about dear hiring manager?

I'm in the Midlands and apply for jobs in Warwick, Leamington Spa and Coventry usually, so not big places really.