Very violent three and half year old

[Letshopeitworks]

My son has asd and is non verbal. He is very violent and it’s getting worse it’s not a reaction he does to get his own way.
Today he has
Ripped chunks out of dd6 hair quite a few times she will just be playing then he does it.
I have several bite marks where he has bitten me and my neck has nip marks on it
My newborn has been slapped today:(
I can’t keep anyone safe nor can I control him he hurts himself as well
I just don’t know what to do:(

There's good advice here, one thing that worked for us was behaviour charts - dd by your DD's age had a handful of word admittedly but was very volatile, still is. She was obsessed with the mr men books and wanted them all so got a quarter (we lived in the us) each day for a star, just because they don't talk doesn't mean they don't understand. She also had 10 hours a week of specialist preschool and 6 hours a week of aba therapy, I don't know if this helped of course as every child is different by by 6 she entered mainstream school in the U.K. (when we moved). Aba isn't widely offered in the U.K. so I trained in it before leaving the us.

Ps dd went from maybe 5-10 words at 3 and only on prompting to fully verbal by 4.5 or so, she could also already read we discovered at that point. She's adult now so my recollection isn't perfect but 2-4 were pretty bad (I was pregnant with her sister when she was diagnosed) then we've had further major issues around 11 and 15, she is considered medium functioning as a young adult, studies and works but needs to live at home

I would also recommend ABA as it got my DS talking. All it is is a simple reward based learning system where all targets (eg verbal communication) are broken down into small steps. However, that being said, there are definitely some bad consultants around, and also some amazing ones.
Would also recommend the books ‘kids beyond limits’ and ‘the reason I jump’ the former got my DS pointing and repeating words (he wasn’t making any noises at this point) and the latter is provides an amazing insight into a young boy (13) who has autism, explaining what it’s like to live with. It’s hard OP, my heart goes out to you and your DC

I would also say the ethical issues surrounding ABA makes me very uncomfortable. I feel it doesn't treat the person as a person, including the asd. They're trying to train the asd out of them like a dog, no matter the negative response nd effect on the child. And I think when you look at the children later it has a negative effect. I would definitely not go there

Children who have undergone ABA have a high instance of PTSD as adults due to the techniques employed. I'm not comfortable with any sort of "therapy" that punishes a child for behaviours such as stimming and forces them to act like a neurotypical person when they are not neurotypical.

Lots of great advice here. I would recommend watching some YouTubers like Fathering Autism who have videos on AAC apps that you can get to try to communicate.

@MauisHouseOnMaui
There’s certainly no punishments involved. Nor is there any attempt to ‘remove their ASD’ nor any pressure to act neurotypical. Perhaps when it first came about it may have involved such things, but that certainly isn’t the case now. There was a bbc documentary on it not that long ago, and a lot of the children gone through it certainly recommended it. As did their parents. My son likely wouldn’t be able to speak if we hadn’t gone through it as he certainly wasn’t responding to standard SALT (pecs or makaton at that point). It’s about helping your child make sense of their environment & breaking down the steps of communication so they can communicate. The vast majority of it is done through play, with a couple of table activities (like reading or matching objects).

In everything I have read and heard about ABA, the emphasis is on the autistic person changing their behaviour and working towards being "normal" with the implied belief that they are currently "abnormal". It's origins are ethically murky to say the least and even today it is not as stringent regulated as it ought to be, there are still providers using unethical and cruel methods.

I don't believe it is any coincidence that the fiercest critics of ABA are members of the autistic community and they are incredibly scathing in their opinion of it with many likening it to gay convertion therapy and hoping that at some point in the near future it is viewed with the same level of disgust as gay convertion therapy is now.

Obviously it's great for that you found it to be so helpful and I hope that's an opinion your child shares when they are older, we all make the decisions we believe are best at the time, but that doesn't mean other people are not allowed to be dubious about the morality, integrity, and ethics of such programmes.

You need a behaviour plan and sensory assessment and communication advice

PECS is behaviour based and cam really help
My d's behaviour was vety challenging espec when constipated and frustrated due to lack of communication .he is now in 20s a broad based ABA approach helped him greatly. He is still non verbal but speaks at his level using an I p ad app.
Before ABA he had other one on one approaches which helped to a degree.
But you need to get onto some k i nd of programme for your ds whatever you can access locally . Eg nursery ASD unit. and get ss assessment from children with disabilities team.if you emphasise you cannot keep the baby safe you might get access to some respite e.g. a specialist childminder or foster carer for fe w hours break . you need to say what you want. Is it Ds to go elsewhere for few hours or more or more help at home.?

Obviously it's great for that you found it to be so helpful and I hope that's an opinion your child shares when they are older, we all make the decisions we believe are best at the time, but that doesn't mean other people are not allowed to be dubious about the morality, integrity, and ethics of such programmes.

Which is why I have suggested that those people who are dubious should visit a well managed programme and do their own research on what is happening now before dismissing something that is helping so many children and adults daily. The field suffers greatly from its history but all disciplines change and evolve. Ideas such as it being based on punishment and training the autism away is just so old fashioned and contrary to a modern program.

The closest I would come to 'training autism away is:

1. giving an adult man an array of ribbons to flick so that he can go out in public without feeling the need to flick or pull the hair of any woman or girl he sees. I discussed with him what he likes about the sensation and we spent a couple of weeks visiting haberdasheries and ordering items online before he was happy with his alternative. It means he can visit shops cinemas pubs and go to games for his favourite football team without worrying that he will hurt or upset someone.
   The ABA term used for this is DRO -Differential Reinforcement of Other behaviours
2. i have also given training or training materials around autism for venues that are local to my clients. It helps to make the community more accepting and understanding of individuals with autism especially people who use an alternative means of communication or have behaviours that appear aggressive.

I know of a LOT of adults some of whom I know personally who are grateful to the field of ABA and do not have PTSD. I actually have only heard of and met people recently at conferences who have been through bad experiences and been shocked. The whole field needs to be better monitored in the UK at least (I don't know about the US).

Suggesting that my child might not be grateful for their ABA experience in the future is a bit like saying to someone 'I hope your child doesn't resent you sending them to school'. Or it isn't because most children do not spend their lessons having fun 1:1 with one of their favourite people. When I used to work in the field my clients would run to the door when I arrived.

I am not telling everyone they must do or love ABA, I am just trying to get people to look at the field nowadays themselves, with an open mind. Most families doing ABA would welcome interested observers. Most people don't even notice when I am working in the natural environment on my daughter's social skills. This is a target for her because she LOVES to socialise but hasn't yet mastered the techniques for keeping a conversation or game going. If she wasn't interested in other children I wouldn't be working on it.

OK I really am putting the drum down now.🥁

If I find the courage (or friends to help) I might do an AMA for ABA.

OP, how did it go with the HV? Also, did DS like the tent? X

@MauisHouseOnMaui

I do believe that the fiercest critics would be HF adults, which is so far away from the world of having moderate or severe autism. Plenty of parents who have moderate or severely autistic children would like a cure for autism. So that their children could lead fulfilling independent lives. Imo the HF and moderate-severe diagnosis should be split as it’s not fair to group them together.

That said, the reduction in stimming that is seen from ABA isn’t the goal, but a by-product of providing more sensory stimulation with ABA which is the goal.
Having said that it has just occurred to me, that the violent behaviour exhibited by OPs child may not be due to frustration of the inability to communicate his needs, but sensory seeking. Op it may be an idea to get him some toy drums? Or a giant blowy-up toy he can hit instead & you can encourage and hit it with him for a length of time each day & see if that leads to a reduction in his outbursts?

Thanks for all the advice. We got him a tent which he loves he even stole all my fancy throw cushions to put in it. The hv was really helpful she thinks we need respite and in her words she will bloody fight for it!

Hi, OP. My adult DSD is in exactly the same position with her 3 year old, so I'm going to read your thread and then come back if that's ok.

Pinkgin I have a severe asd adult

Plenty of parents who have moderate or severely autistic children would like a cure for autism...

Well no it s not abput a Cure it is about enabling the child to function better in a world which makes no sense to them.
So ABA helped toilet train my nine year old and addressed many behaviours sometimes by thinking of a substitution So as was suggested instead of attacking people find the reason offer an alternative like beat a pillow
Sensory issues..Use gradual approach exposure gradually . Being aware of triggers. Visual schedules. Getting a non verbal child to communicate using symbols then an ipad.... This isn't just ABA approach but any sensible holistic approach.

Op that s great you identified somwthing which works.
It s a good start.
Now.for.learning a holistic approach would use the tent and get In there with him...also find one you can take out with you.

You say there are no triggers but he has 5 siblings? Plenty of triggers I'd say.

Get pro help (and listen to mnhq and get this thread posted elsewhere. you seem to ignore those posts for some reason.)

@cestlavielIfe can I ask you how you toilet trained your son at 9 ( sorry to hijack the thread Op) I have a non verbal 9 year old who.isn't toilet trained I have been trying on and off for years he uses PECS ( when he wants to!) No interest in an i pad though, interestingly he's dry at night

@x2boys
ABA approach. A week of recording eating drinking and pees and pops
Living in a room with commode as bathroom too small
Nothing on
Getting him to sit every 20 minutes
Huge reinforcer for success was Smarties
Took five days soilid to crack it with always someone with him e.g. his individual tutors.
He withheld but many wet floors later cracked it.
Getting soneone who knew what to do was helpful after many previous failed attempts

Well summers holidays are nearly here and he like ,s to be naked so will give it a go ,he also has chronic constipation which hase,nt helped matters,chocolate stars might work as a reinforcer or blu tack!thanks for replying @cestlavielife.