Help me get perspective on this school situation

[Needanickname1]

At my ds primary school there are children who have difficult behaviour, for a variety of reasons, as there are at all schools. As well as general disruptive behaviour, it is now normal to have physical violence in class (hitting, punching, throwing things at people), and also children being out of control in common areas of the school, to the point where other children are not allowed out of class or to walk past.

I understand that schools are struggling desperately with funding cuts and there are so few non mainstream schools around now. But is this normal in schools now? Does this happen in your school?

Yes absolutely to the PP who talked about SLT folding instead of supporting their teachers. A child in my DC's class is regularly violent, threatening and disruptive. The child is year 3. For the third year running the teacher who has had this child for a year is leaving the school - they are good teachers, they tried strong strategies that we're starting to make the class a much calmer, safer place for everyone. Then the child's parents' relentless daily complaints wore down the SLT who rolled over. I've never seen parents bully a head before, but I have now. Four children (including mine) are leaving the class this summer. None of us are re-locating, we just see that this school won't do anything to stop a daily atmosphere of violence. We tried going through governors to express support for the class teacher but when the head doesn't support them...

Yes common, due to support roles being cut, bigger class sizes, less SEN schools, shorter breaks, less pay and worse conditions for teachers, less time devoted to foundation subjects and less money for adequate resources. I think schools are generally having to do the job that parents would have traditionally done too. There's far too much on the curriculum and teachers and pupils are hugely strained. The education system needs education experts (I.e. teachers) to take back control from the government (i.e. those without a clue about teaching) and give it a massive shake up- follow the example of countries with a better education system.

Our primary school isn't like that, but they come down hard on bullying and bad behaviour and put kids through the THRIVE programme where necessary to help them. They will put them on report if they repeatedly fall out or bully others.

Our secondary school isn't like that, but the HT comes down very hard on behaviour and uniform etc and excludes pupils or puts them in isolation. They get detentions for forgetting sports kit or reading books. Everyone moans about him, but he gets results.

A lot of bad behaviour is down to shite parenting, nobody is talking about SN kids here, but about NT kids who are not given boundaries at home. I have been at playgroups whilst DC were growing up where other parents let their kids hit or throw or damage, and when confronted would say shit like "oh but we don't like rules and regulations, it stifles dear little Johnny". Sure, so it is OK for him to throw metal cars at other kids, or push them off the slide because he can't wait, or just hit them? and injure them is it? Shite parenting whichever way you look at it. Little Johnny then grows up an entitled little shit believing that he can do what he wants, that the world revolves around him and that nobody dare tell him off for anything. and no, he is not SN!!

This thread is like Brexit. There is no one answer . You can’t blame the government for everything ( and if you are going to blame austerity blame the government who caused it in the first place) .

The problem is a combination of things . It is not black and white . And not all schools even within the same area have the same problems.

And I say this as do have experience of a child having to move schools .

I agree with looking at the education systems in other countries . There approach can be very different but by age11 they get the same or better results.

I wonder how many of these disruptive children are waiting for CAMHS - so many kids are being failed as it takes so long for them to get any help and really discourages people from starting the process if the need is not severe. That's a big part of this too.

Schools are imploding with the funding crisis

It's not as simple as blaming funding, this has been developing for 20 years, ever since schools lost the majority of their disciplinary powers and the children were encouraged to have an overwhelming sense of 'entitlement'. The parental support for schools has declined, the worst can't manage 1 or 2 children and don't want anyone else doing so, they know their 'rights.

The problems are complex and each situation is unique but I've observed it starts with inappropriate parenting (not necessarily neglectful), missed opportunities for diagnosis, poorly trained support staff, poor living conditions, mental health issues (the young person and/or family) and a system struggling under the weight of numbers. A friend is involved in a study that is looking at increased consumption of alcohol in women of child bearing age and increase in adhd and related disorders over time - I've seen preliminary research, its quite damning, in the 90's the "ladette" culture really took off, whilst most women do stop or drastically reduce alcohol consumption, not all pregnancies are planned is the working hypothesis. In any given child, alcohol may not be a factor but across a population the case can be different.

"It's not as simple as blaming funding, this has been developing for 20 years, ever since schools lost the majority of their disciplinary powers and the children were encouraged to have an overwhelming sense of 'entitlement'. The parental support for schools has declined, the worst can't manage 1 or 2 children and don't want anyone else doing so, they know their 'rights."

True in part but also ignores the fact that it often has absolutely nothing to do with discipline or SLT.

Severely mentally ill children who have been through trauma are tossed on a waiting list and given no support from camhs. No medical help. No support from social services. No general TAs. No funding at the school for counselling services. Everything is cut cut cut. The child can't cope and the schools have no funding to support them either.

I wonder how many of these disruptive children are waiting for CAMHS - so many kids are being failed as it takes so long for them to get any help and really discourages people from starting the process if the need is not severe. That's a big part of this too.

Exactly

yep, I'm afraid this is getting more and more normal in schools, partially due to lack of specialist placements, partially funding and partially due to lack of parental support.

I work in mainstream but mainly with the more challenging students, I have been kicked, punched, pinched, scratched, slapped, bitten, had my hair pulled and had items thrown at me ranging from a pencil to a table. Not all by the same child and not all by children with SEN. Some of it is children who genuinely can't control it, some of it is out of frustration, some of it is learned behaviour that they are copying from somewhere else, some of it is poor parenting leading to children not knowing boundaries and the one that upsets me most is some of it is due to traumatic backgrounds.

The problem is, 1- without parental support there is little the school can do. For example a child got sent home for violence, parents took them to McDonalds and for a lovely day out in the sunshine, therefore get sent home = get to do nice things. I have regularly seen parents blame the teachers for their child's shitty behaviour so in those kids minds it doesn't matter if the teacher tells the parents, the parents are going to blame the teacher anyway.

2 - there are only so many adjustments a mainstream school can make. Not just because of funding. For example I spend a lot of time in our sensory room with a child who simply can't handle the noise and over stimulation of 30 children in a classroom, child then lashes out, all I can do is move other children away from them and get them somewhere safe, which is usually when I get hurt. Its not their fault, it's not the parents fault. They would be much happier in a smaller, quieter class, with the facilities they need but the LA says we can meet their needs.

3- there are children living in homes where the shouting, violence, throwing things is normalised, so schools are not only teaching them social skills but having to get them to unlearn the example they have been set at home. I'll never forget the child who pulled my face round by my hair to get my attention when I didn't answer quick enough because "That's what Daddy does." Poor child genuinely thought that was normal.

All bad behaviour has a reason, whether it is SEN, attention seeking, poor examples/poor parenting or a reaction to something horrible, we might not be able to see what the reason is, or it might seem a stupid reason to an adult but there will be a reason.

@noblegiraffe - I understand where you're coming from with your Luke analogy, but from the perspective of a parent to a child with SN that aren't being met, it feels more like I'm a Luke who does everything that can be expected of him, works hard, cooperates fully with staff, but still gets blamed at random by supply staff who don't know who is who, because some other Lukes are little toerags and hey we're all called Luke so who gives a shit if we isolate and victimise and shout at the wrong Luke day after day after day? No Luke without fire after all...

And after several years of being expected to put up with comments about "I blame the parents" then yeah, I'm a little fucking twitchy about it.

I've got a teenager predicted to do very well at GCSE, who is doing science A levels with a view to doing a science degree, who patiently helps care for her brother, who adults tell me is a delight to have around... But yeah, my younger child throws chairs and then hides and tries to harm himself and says he wants to die because he can't stop his brain melting and making him so angry because of my parenting. Or so you'd think, reading the shite I've read on MN.

And yes, last time he was sent home early from school after a meltdown, I took him strawberry picking and we had an ice cream. Because he was having suicidal thoughts because he felt so ashamed of losing his ability to cope in a classroom he shouldn't have to be in but there is no alternative on the horizon any time soon. So fuck yeah, I wanted to help him feel better and talk about how to handle things better when he was calm and had been reminded about how much I love him and how fucking amazing he has the potential to be.

I'm sorry the OP has had to endure this on behalf of her child.

I can only say that I simply can't imagine hitting or swearing or indeed any talking back occurring in the primary school I know.

The discipline I saw there was really so well applied, and fairly too.

I can honestly say it was strict, fair and egalitarian.

I was amazed!

A lot of it is poor shitty parenting

Yep! Pretty common at my school. Mostly due to lack of budget for the required specialist 1:1 staff & resources etc but sometimes significantly hindered by utterly shite parenting!

@QOFE I am sorry, I should have explained my point about the trip to McDonalds better, I was talking about a child with no SEN who was sent home for being a violent bully and was proud of it and needed consequences. Your DS was having a meltdown and needed love and support and some help trying to find a way to cope with a situation he shouldn't be in, it's totally different.

Thank you for all your replies, it's been very insightful.

It seems like this is more common than it is not then. I feel so very sad. Not just for my children and others like them, but for children whose behaviour is so difficult (for the many reasons apparent in this thread) and the distress they too must feel, for the parents of those children with SEN struggling against a system that does not care about their child's needs, and for those dedicated teachers and support staff who are getting physically hurt and sworn at, and are just trying to do their job. Its appalling that our schools have been allowed to be like this.

And in the meantime I have spent all evening cuddling up to a crying 9 year old who doesn't want to go to school tomorrow...

Yesterday I was speaking to a young lady who used to be a primary school teacher and my friend and I were explaining how our school classes were sometimes up to 40 pupils . But how we were very respectful of our teachers because you did risk a smack round the legs or at least immediate removal from a class to another area for bad behaviour . The reason she left ? She was attacked by a child of 10 enough to end up in hospital for treatment , but was told she had to go in the next day to teach . She was still in shock and eventually just walked because the school said they could not move the child from her class when he came back. She agreed it is a mixture of problems. In her school in particular you were up against parents as well as unruly children and those with SN were not given the treatment or protection they deserved . The school was in a particularly rough area with parents not exactly setting a good example but also she felt she was not backed up by the union . I won’t repeat the injury but it was pretty Appalling and the parents of the child started blaming her . Like I said before it’s not black and white and I am not advocating going back to the punishments our teachers were allowed to dish out , but those with SEN should not be exposed to some of the current behaviour in SOME schools .

It’s interesting that the whole emphasis has been on integrating children with SEN into mainstream school , whereas posters on here really are desperate to get them into a more suitable and kinder environment? So is that part of the problem ? More special schools needed or more discipline in existing schools so attention can be given to the SEN ? Or special classes within mainstream school? If people are going to blame funding it’s important that the end aim is clear ?

No special school places and no TAs to support in class (thanks to cuts). It has been largely resolved in our school now as we've been taken over by a MAT and they've just kicked the difficult ones out. Unlike the previous leadership, they don't care that these children have nowhere else to go. A couple of hours a week in PRU doesn't really count. Children don't behave this way for no reason. Often it is undiagnosed SEN in my experience. They are undiagnosed because it's really bloody hard to get a diagnosis (thanks to cuts).

SusieOwl4 it depends on the SEN of course but fundamentally for SEN children to thrive in mainstream school they need to be well supported and this can't happen if there is no funding for TAs. What's happening now isn't to the benefit of SEN children. They're just being chucked into mainstream school with no support to sink or swim.

There should be a choice made based on what is best for each individual child that they are either properly supported in a mainstream school or they are given a place in special school. The current situation for many children is the worst of all worlds and it's heartbreaking.

I don't know what anyone thinks 'normal' means: OP asked if the behaviour she described was 'normal'.

Normal = accepted & shrugged off & nobody tries to improve it: No, not IME.
Normal = common & not utterly shocking: yes, of course, kids make mistakes, have poor impulse and emotional control.
Normal = many children many times a day: No, not IME.
Normal = at least one child in 300, daily will be such moments: Yes.
Normal = daily or almost daily at least once in a few classes: Yes.
Normal = daily or almost daily in almost every class?: Not at all.

Don't know what the rest of you are talking about since you never defined terms.