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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Biometrics for school lunches

90 replies

insideoutsider · 03/07/2019 10:58

We received a letter last week from my DC's primary school saying the children will have to have their fingerprints / biometrics recorded as part of the school payments process. They already have a payment app where we make payments such as school lunches, music lessons, trips etc

I thought - I would not be consenting for my children's biometrics to be collected. Today, I rang the school for clarification and they said they will not be able to buy ANY school lunches or any trips without biometrics. Sounds like something from a dystopian fiction.

Am I being unreasonable to think this is a little OTT? Fingerprints are such a powerful means of identification that really shouldn't be in the hands of just anyone. I'm happy for biometrics to be scanned at airports and security agencies or to keep people safe. This, however, is some random company, collecting and storing their fingerprints.

It's not space camp; it's school lunches!

AIBU? Please share your thoughts and the consequences if you declined to give consent.

OP posts:
Mrsjayy · 03/07/2019 11:02

I think you are being a little Ott as the biometrics are destroyed once they leave school i don't think it is something you need to get paranoid about.

TeenTimesTwo · 03/07/2019 11:05

They don't store the actual fingerprint. You don't need to worry.

The fingerprint is turned into a code. Then compared against the stored code.

It is a fantastic system which means the kids don't need money at school and so reduces issues of it being lost / stolen, and means that the canteen moves much faster.

Give consent, you don't need to worry in this instance.

Gatehouse77 · 03/07/2019 11:05

This came in at secondary school for us but we had the option of a passcode too.
Many staff and students refused biometrics so they had to offer an alternative.
All of mine opted for the passcode as the school couldn't explain what would be done with the information satisfactorily.

LaundryIsADisease · 03/07/2019 11:08

At least they won't loose their fingers at the same speed as they lose lunch cards.

HennyPennyHorror · 03/07/2019 11:09

Biometrics are just height and stuff. Fingerprints aren't like DNA or something. What can they do with it? Nothing!

MyOpinionIsValid · 03/07/2019 11:09

Biometrics ARE NOT fingerprints.

relating to or involving the application of statistical analysis to biological data.

What it does is convert certain points on the finger into a code, which is then stored.

TinyGhostWriter · 03/07/2019 11:13

The government have issued guidelines for schools about this: www.gov.uk/government/publications/protection-of-biometric-information-of-children-in-schools

It makes reference to legislation- including the Protection of Freedoms Act (2012) and on page 8 it states

*What the law says:

  1. Reasonable alternative arrangements must be provided for pupils who do not use automated biometric recognition systems either because their parents have refused consent (or a parent has objected in writing) or due to the pupil’s own refusal to participate in the collection of their biometric data.
  2. The alternative arrangements should ensure that pupils do not suffer any disadvantage or difficulty in accessing services/premises etc. as a result of their not participating in an automated biometric recognition system. Likewise, such arrangements should not place any additional burden on parents whose children are not participating in such a system.*
jellycatspyjamas · 03/07/2019 11:15

I wouldn’t be happy with it either, they would need to provide an alternative means for my child to pay because I wouldn’t be giving consent.

Mrsjayy · 03/07/2019 11:16

My dds have left school a few years but when it came into their high school it was really explained it all very well to us.

LondonJax · 03/07/2019 11:16

We have this at our DS's secondary school. We could have opted for a passcode but decided it was one more thing DS was likely to forget - he'd only just joined at the time so had secondary school, new friends, loads of homework, different lesson etc to contend with.

It works brilliantly and it's tied into an app which allows me and DH to check what he's eaten that day - which is helpful to check there's no bullying like 'buy me my lunch or else' and that DS is eating properly, not rushing off to do something else at lunch time.

Damntheman · 03/07/2019 11:18

I would be wanting to see how secure the system is that the school has in place for storing the data first.

AnxietyDream · 03/07/2019 11:20

I think you are being a bit paranoid - people use fingerprints for phones etc, it's not dystopian!

But I also think the school should offer a choice (so there should be an alternative way to pay).

MyOpinionIsValid · 03/07/2019 11:22

TBH, your primary is so far being the times, its still in the 20th century. They've had this where I used to work at least 12 years ago.

TeenTimesTwo · 03/07/2019 11:22

Schools store way more sensitive data than a code number generated from a fingerprint.

People are happy to let facebook / alexa / siri / apple have loads of information.

Knowing that James Smith's fingerprint number is 67239fg3w isn't going to do much for anyone.

P1nkHeartLovesCake · 03/07/2019 11:23

What’s the issue with this? It’s a standard practice in a lot of schools.

Do you think a Russian spy is going to steal the fingerprints? And what fit the child up for murder?

Some people are so paranoid......

Original poster
insideoutsider · 03/07/2019 11:25

Thanks for your input all. It's interesting to read the varying views. The school already use an app where you can pay and see what the children order or eat. There is no card to get lost, no bullies to take your money.

They can certainly remember codes if it is provided.
Thanks @TinyGhostWriter. I will be asking for the alternative arrangements.

OP posts:
TeenTimesTwo · 03/07/2019 11:33

inside Given it has now been explained they don't actually store the fingerprint, why are you still worried?

The school stores name, dob, address, parents' info, whether PP, or SN, attendance etc. A number that happens to be generated from a fingerprint is neither here nor there.

I presume you stay well clear of things like facebook, and don't use an Alexa (which monitors everything you say, listening for her name)?

(The secondary school probably uses it too.)

Original poster
insideoutsider · 03/07/2019 11:33

To all those saying I'm being paranoid, I hold my hands up - I certainly am!

I don't think I've ever given my own fingerprints to anyone for anything. Passport office, banks, hospitals, none of them have needed our fingerprints to identify us. Why is it that the school needs fingerprint identification to order school lunches?

@P1nkHeartLovesCake - my DC would certainly like the idea of his fingerprint being stolen by the Russians Grin!

OP posts:
TeenTimesTwo · 03/07/2019 11:36

Children can't lose their fingers, (and don't access lunch remotely).

At least you know you are being paranoid. Grin

I don't like Alexas or Facebook, but have no qualms on this kind of technology. (Possibly helped by my DB working on it years back.)

ChidiAnnaKendrick · 03/07/2019 11:39

I’m 30 and used my thumb to take out books and pay for lunches at secondary school. Cannot see the issue at all! Can’t lose a thumb, but could forget a code/lose a card/be bullied for money etc etc etc.

Original poster
insideoutsider · 03/07/2019 11:39

@TeenTimesTwo
Given it has now been explained they don't actually store the fingerprint, why are you still worried? I'm worried because I don't see why it's being collected in the first place.

The school stores name, dob, address, parents' info - that's just general information that can be given to anyone. I see fingerprint collection like DNA collection. I have no problem with it being collected for something important and appropriate for the need. School lunches isn't quite (IMO)

I presume you stay well clear of things like facebook, and don't use an Alexa I don't use Alexa, only because I have no use for it and Facebook doesn't really have my 'real' personal info. Even if I used them, I see those as surface info so I'm not as worried about them. Maybe I should be.

OP posts:
BrillyPribble · 03/07/2019 11:43

My eldest's school does this for lunchtimes too, to be honest I think it's a brilliant solution, they don't need cash or lunch cards (that was the previous solution), they never forget their finger! They don't store the fingerprint, and even if they did, what are they going to do with it anyway? Non-issue for me.

CassianAndor · 03/07/2019 11:46

People are happy to let facebook / alexa / siri / apple have loads of information.

not everyone does. DH doesn't have any of the above and his Apple usage is as limited as he can make it. He clears his cookies weekly, things like that. Rarely has his phone switched on, doesn't have location services running all the time. He is pretty paranoid - though one person's paranoid is another person's perfectly sensible, I suppose.

flirtygirl · 03/07/2019 11:46

I would never agree to this. The fact that so many of you above have agreed to it, is worrying in itself.

The schools, companies and the government do not have a good track record on storing data and keeping it secure.

Just because the average person can not see nothing wrong with this system, does not mean the hacker or criminal will not be able to see flaws and pathways to gain and use the data and monetise it.

Its a horrible slippery slope.

I do not use my fingerprint on my phone, I will never get a Google home or an Alexa. My phone microphone is turned off as standard.

Most people do not know enough about these technologies but are so quick to jump into using them.

Op ask the school for an alternative and start a campaign to get an alternative if there is not one.

flirtygirl · 03/07/2019 11:48

I don't let anyone have my location and I don't use any social media.

I do come on mumsnet and that's it. If it wasn't private, I would stop using it.

I think in years to come we will be wondering why we so freely gave away our privacy, our biometrics and why we allowed our fingerprints to be turned into code.