To ask what you think of the death penalty? (Don’t open if you don’t like talking about death and crime)

[Chancewouldbeafinethlng]

I listened to Adam Buxtons newest podcast episode and found it very interesting.
I’m not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand there are some criminals who I would not piss on if they were on fire, I think they really deserve to die. But then there is always going to be a person who’s job it is to kill that person.
Also there is the risk that someone has been falsely accused and maybe not had a fair trial. How would you ever know?

The episode touched on the method used currently for the death penalty. The woman who was talking was saying how unreliable it is and is basically torture if it doesn’t work. What other methods could be used though?

Sorry I know it’s a very morbid subject but I would be interested in hearing other people’s opinions.

Isn't that a better punishment then? Rather than give these people a release from the torment of living like that for the rest of their lives?

Is it not morally wrong to want to impose maximum torment upon the someone though? Why not just chuck them in a NK style prison the size of a rabbit hutch and get them to do hard labour for 18 hours a day if you want maximum torment?

This thread, I'd suspect, is part of the 'softening up' process that attracts the 'populist' approach to everything.

I didn't think it would be too long before the death penalty surfaced again as a possibility in our increasingly right-wing 'populist' society. It's beloved of brexity shitheads and anyone mildly associated with them.

Of course it's abssurd to kill people, esp as a 'state' in a cold calculated way.

Yes, MrPan - I think there's a lot of that happening, coming both from actual grass-roots right-wingers right through to actual "astroturfing". It's a deliberate attempt to shift the Overton window. We're seeing a huge amount of the same sort of thing around debates about abortion too. (And not just in America - there was a recent thread on FWR where a woman was delayed access to a ERPC after a partially failed abortion, because the doctors on duty at her local hospital were both "conscientious objectors". And this was North Devon, not North Virginia!)

I don't think the death penalty acts as an extra deterrent. If being arrested and imprisoned doesn't deter you then adding extra punitive measures will have no effect.

I would love to somehow get a huge wodge of cash from a bank. But the thought of punishment stops me doing anything illegal.

Also, look at Colin Stagg, he'd be dead by now. I don't know why USA still does it.

I've been against capital punishment for many years and feel very strongly about it.

It's been proven that it doesn't act as a deterrent (the US being a prime example of this) and I don't think the government should have the power to take life away.
You only have to look at the cases of Derek Bentley and the wrongful conviction of Timothy Evans to see how it can all go very wrong. Even one wrongful execution is one too many.

When it comes to the whole "prisoners cost money" argument..... Well, so do executions, believe it or not. Appeals processes are often long, complicated and costly - inmates end up on death row for many years - there have been instances where prisoners have died long before their sentence could be carried out.
And you simply cannot say "get rid of the right to appeal then", this is very dangerous ground and not fit for a civilised country.

One of my concerns about Brexit is that countries with EU membership must not have the death penalty, it's a condition of being a member. When we leave the EU, the UK could very well reinstate it, especially with what appears to be ever-rising far right sentiment.
If this were to happen I would honestly reconsider living here, I feel that strongly about it.

I didn't think it would be too long before the death penalty surfaced again as a possibility in our increasingly right-wing 'populist' society. It's beloved of brexity shitheads and anyone mildly associated with them.

Oh get off your high horse. Read the thread. Its nothing to do with Brexit ffs.

One of my concerns about Brexit is that countries with EU membership must not have the death penalty, it's a condition of being a member. When we leave the EU, the UK could very well reinstate it, especially with what appears to be ever-rising far right sentiment.
If this were to happen I would honestly reconsider living here, I feel that strongly about it.

And another one. I really don't think there would ever be a political appetite for bringing back executions. Stop trying to make political gain out of a thread where it has nothing to do with the topic.

It's beloved of brexity shitheads and anyone mildly associated with them.

Oh full marks for spoiling a sensible discussion. I am opposed to the death penalty as I have posted on here.

I voted Leave. Put that in your nasty sneering divisive pipe and smoke it.

It is wrong for anyone to take a life. That applies to governments/judiciary/prison officers as much as it does to individuals.

I think it’s a shame that we spend so much money on protecting someone like Ian Huntley, when it is money that would be better spent elsewhere, but the alternative would make us barbaric.

It's beloved of brexity shitheads and anyone mildly associated with them.

Um nope, I am staunchly Remain and also left wing politically, so...

Stillstrawberrywater, calm down! This thread is to voice our concerns about the death penalty, my point is relevant to the conversation. Lol, political gain?? What gain do you suggest I'm making on a mumsnet thread? 😂
After the Brexit referendum a few years ago, there was a panel study called the British Election Study which questioned not only how people voted but their views on capital punishment, of which there are obvious correlations to be made. It's an interesting point to think about regardless of what you may think.

Ian Brady fought to die on his own terms and I'm so glad he was kept alive until natural death caught up with him. I hope he suffered every day.

Totally against capital punishment because its still possible to make mistakes.

Have you not noticed you have killed the thread though with your initial comment? that and the other one who came in with the same narrative. I couldn't give a monkeys about what studies you have read, not every topic has to decend into flipping politics.

@Stillstrawberrywater I agree.

One of my concerns about Brexit is that countries with EU membership must not have the death penalty, it's a condition of being a member. When we leave the EU, the UK could very well reinstate it

--FACT ALERT (idiots might want to look away)
The UKs prohibition on the death penalty has nothing to do with the UKs membership of the EU, but the UKs acceptance of the 1953 European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR).

It is a pre-requisite of EU membership that a member state also be a signatory to the ECHR.

The UK is - as it has always been - free to leave the ECHR at any time. Where it could join Russia as the only country invited to sign that has declined.

The death penalty was suspended in the UK in 1965 (just a month or two before it could have taken Brady and Hindley) and that suspension was made permanent in 1969 (under Labours James Callaghan as Home. Sec) and 1973 in Northern Ireland.

in 1985 protocol no. 6 was signed into the convention making capital punishment unlawful in member states (so including the UK).

Subsequently the ECtHR has ruled that the US implementation of the death penalty contravenes the ECHR which means that anyone extradited from an ECHR signatory cannot be tried for a capital crime. (Canada has a similar approach).

--FACTS END

Whilst successive (Tory) governments have made a lot of noise about withdrawing the UK from the ECHR, it's unlikely in practice since it would mean a lot of ECHR countries could no longer work with UK law enforcement. Hardly the hallmark of a government that gives a shit about law and order. And as recent events in Louisiana demonstrate, "laws" are just what governments say they are. Which is why a backstop like the ECHR is essential in protecting us from the power of the state.

We have yet to see it play out, but the ECHR is going to play a central part in the Assange extradition case, depending what charges - and potential penalty - the US government are putting on the docket.

and since we have descended into Brexit again. I voted Leave. I understand the difference between the EU and ECHR. I know we signed ECHR in the 50s and I have no desire for us to unsign it.

Stillstrawberrywater Read on, then? Surely you understand politics do come into to death penalty, as they do in many aspects of our lives. If you don't care and don't want to engage, then just don't? Not sure if you're referring to me when it comes to the initial comment, I didn't call anyone a Brexity shithead, but the thread is hardly dead is it?

ProfessorSlocombe Interesting info, thanks for posting it!

I fundamentally disagree with the death penalty. For 3 reasons.

1. no-one should be put in the position of having to kill another human being. I don't believe we should hold that power over other people
2. It doesn't work as a deterrent. Most murders are done int he heat of the moment. Deterrents don't work on those. The cold blooded premeditated crime that is the backbone of murder mysteries is thankfully rare. This people tend to think they are clever enough not to get caught, so they would not be deterred either.
3. I believe in the possibility of redemption. But that I mean that every human being has the capacity to realise that they were wrong, and to have remorse, and possibly to apologise for their actions. That doesn't mean they get to come out of jail early, but it is good for the families of victims and for the perpetrators, and for us as a society.

But on a side note, we know that too much anaesthetic kills people, so why don't they use that to kill people in places where they have the death penalty, why do they consistently come up with barbaric ways of doing it?

@steppemum I would imagine cost has something to do with that. And tradition, possibly? Or maybe supply issues. Hanging is still the most common method. Saudi Arabia is the only country to still use beheading. There have been botched executions with lethal injections too, though... And some pharmaceutical companies have banned the sale of their drugs for executions.

The English executioner Albert Pierrepoint made some perceptive comments on the death penalty. Annoyingly there's no easy electronic version and my book is buried in disorder.

The thrust was that as long as we have the death penalty we will have reprieves. And as long as we have reprieves we will have politicians playing popularity contests with who should be executed and who not. And as soon as we (re)start down that route then it will be the glamorous young things (i.e. Ruth Ellis) that have a huge publicity machine, not the unglamorous (and highly likely non-white) older men and women.

Speaking personally, if you want the death penalty - fine. Knock yourself out. But before you start spinning the hemp, I also want you to scrap all our appeal courts throughout the justice system. Because there's something morally bankrupt about a criminal justice system happy to admit it can get it wrong on the one hand (hence the existence of appeal courts) and on the other happily dish out the ultimate penalty. Have the courage of your convictions - literally .

Speaking even more personally, if I were to ever serve on a jury I would vote not guilty irrespective of the evidence if it were a means to prevent an execution. (Which is what happened after the war - juries became reluctant to convict ....)

The heartbreaking case of Stefan Kisko should serve as a warning about the dangers of wrongful convictions.

No high horse involved, sorry.

It's been known since the abolition of capital punishment that survey's indicate a popular support for it (esp around the time of the IRA bombing campaign) and the refusal of Parliament to return it as a sentencing option.

I'm afraid we do live in a 'post-fact/vote with your guts' world now (demonstrated by the brexit fiasco) and the prospect of the return of capital punishment is an extension of that. It won't matter what international agreement we are party to - IF it means pandering to the lowest common demoninator of the public or the leading Party (witness J Hunt reacting to this in recent days) it will lead to whatever is 'demanded' being agreed to.

Am pretty sure the brexit party will be stuffed with capital punishers - it fits the profile.

The UK isn't going to reinstate executions. None of the mainstream parties have anything in their manifestos even approaching any suggestion of it being brought back. The concern is completely fabricated and unfounded.

The notation of Brexit being brought into this topic is just an example of people, both sides of the Brexit debate are guilty of this at times, who can't engage in a general debate anymore without trying to worm their political agenda into any given topic.

But that isn't how manifestos work - soundings/moods are registered - what seemed to be unlikely/unpalatble suddenly emerges as 'okaaay'/lets talk, will it attract votes? Then....measures come in as proto-manifesto possibilities. I was indicating the discussions allow the possibility to aired. As others have indicated, Hitler didn't start with concentration camps - they were the result.

State sanctioned murder
What kind of message does it send when the state approves of murder?
Violence begets violence, a society with the death penalty will become more violent not less violent
Capital punishment is primitive and barbaric we should move away from it, we want progress not regression

MrPan you are just speculating though. That's all you have to go by in your paper thin argument that somehow Brexit will bring in executions. And now you're bringing up concentration camps......