To ask what you think of the death penalty? (Don’t open if you don’t like talking about death and crime)

[Chancewouldbeafinethlng]

I listened to Adam Buxtons newest podcast episode and found it very interesting.
I’m not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand there are some criminals who I would not piss on if they were on fire, I think they really deserve to die. But then there is always going to be a person who’s job it is to kill that person.
Also there is the risk that someone has been falsely accused and maybe not had a fair trial. How would you ever know?

The episode touched on the method used currently for the death penalty. The woman who was talking was saying how unreliable it is and is basically torture if it doesn’t work. What other methods could be used though?

Sorry I know it’s a very morbid subject but I would be interested in hearing other people’s opinions.

I support it - as I’m from a country that uses it. Personally - my family have been affected by it. And yes - he was 100% guilty.

Also, I work with criminals, some of them murderers. Some of them will be forever dangerous, and never fit to live in society. Some of them are out in the community in their 50’s, 60’s and 70’s, having done something horrific when they were 18, very angry and very damaged. They are different people now, and have lived many years as productive members of society, still living with the guilt of what they did, and have committed no further crimes. They are still subject to restriction and supervision and they will be for life. No one is the same person at 70 as they were at 18. How can you tell at sentencing, which type you are dealing with? The very young man who is dangerous now, or the life long criminal?

There are some who you know will never be released but they are absolutely the minority. The reason we know Brady or Huntly’s name is because they are the rare exception, not the norm in the prison population.

The problem is that if those 25 years are spent in a brutal environment (thinking of some American prisons) I can't see how someone's character would improve.

I think it depends. But prisons should not be brutal. I believe we need to invest in education, meaningful work and privacy, as well as deprivation of liberty. The fact that prions are full of violence, phones, alcohol and drugs is our failure.

What about the Nazis at Nuremberg. Did any of them deserve the death penalty?

A prison full of people who know they shall never ever be free again is incredibly difficult almost impossible to manage

There has to be a good enough reason to believe that they shall always be a danger to others to keep them locked up until the day they die

I would like to see tougher prison sentences to those who have harmed others intentionally (and drink drivers) but life for so many prisoners won’t happen it’s too difficult to manage humanely

What about the Nazis at Nuremberg. Did any of them deserve the death penalty?

I haven’t read those cases. It’s tempting, isn’t it, to draw your own personal line on “too evil to live”? I am sure I have my line, like everyone else. I just don’t believe I should be allowed the power of life and death.

Stay sexy @ziggiestardust

I was also going to mention the case of the central park 5, I am very clued up on the case and the series on netflix had me in tears. Absolutely horrific

You look at the West Memphis 3 etc, the lists are endless. Its frightening

I used to watch some tv programme about prisoners having charities do the DNA testing to prove their innocence for their supposed crimes and the amount of times they were innocent...how many have been put to death :(

One thing I liked was the fact that when people get sentenced over there they often get consecutive sentences, whereas here they are concurrent.

I agree. I'm still a little confused why we have 'concurrent' sentences, what is the point?
Sorry if this is derailing the thread, but does anyone know the reason for this?

I have always been torn on this subject, on one hand i can think of many prisoners who have done horrific crimes that don't deserve to be here.

On the other, it doesn't really work as a deterrent and a false accusation is always a possibility.

In America it costs so much for the state to go through all the appeals a prisoner is entitled to it actually costs more to put someone to death than just to let them rot in hell in prison

A prison full of people who know they shall never ever be free again is incredibly difficult almost impossible to manage

Really? I can’t imagine it would be that hard, with a decent budget.

I would have preferred to see the Nazi generals in prison

No power or freedom over their lives a long long punishment

But at times politically it becomes safer to have people dead

This is such a complex subject. There have been some terrible miscarriages of justice with the death penalty. Two of the later ones in this country are Derek Bentley and Ruth Ellis. Derek Bentley was already in custody when the shot which killed a police officer was fired. He was a 19 year old with learning difficulties who was hanged basically shouting 'let him have it' to the teenager who shot the police officer. It is arguable that he could have been shouting let the police have the gun. He didn't shoot anyone himself but was hanged as an accomplice/accessory to murder. The actual killer, aged 16, was too young in law to be executed so the state executed his accomplice instead. A terrible injustice.

Ruth Ellis deliberately shot her lover/boyfriend several times. He had been unfaithful and the balance of her mind was disturbed. She did kill but was not a risk to anyone else and might even have been committed for manslaughter today rather than murder. A similar murder conviction has been overturned and changed to manslaughter recently.

On the other hand I am not convinced that the death penalty wasn't a deterrent. When I was younger everybody was shocked to hear of a murder and it would always be reported nationally. Now I find that there's a murder reported on local news practically weekly so its hard to imagine what the annual national figures are. I'm sure that if I googled them they would show a big rise since the death penalty was abolished.
What's the answer? I wish I knew! At least today, with DNA evidence it is far less likely that the type of miscarriages of justice which were based on circumstancial evidence would occur. But like others the concept of the death penalty doesn't sit well with me. As a society we need to find ways to prevent the rising toll of murder and deal with those who kill in ways which are both acceptable in a civilized society and a real deterant to those with the desire to kill. Don't ask me how!

Never agreed, with it never will. The argument that irks me most in is favour is the one about it being cheaper than locking them up for life. Aside from the fact it isn't actually cheaper, if you believe the state should be allowed to kill people to save money your morals are beyond fucked up.

I'd like to see far more resource put into prevention of crime. Whether you execute a murderer, jail them for life or send them to the moon their victim is still dead. Justice is a poor second prize for victims of crime who would much prefer never to have been victims in the first place.

We need to put more resource into the police and criminal justice system for starters. A deterrent only works if there is a high chance of it being applied. Detection and conviction rates are too low and you can't expect a first class service at economy class prices. We should also look at new strategies instead of just doing what we've always done and wondering why nothing much changes. I bet most teachers can reliably tell when one of their pupils is likely to turn out a wrong 'un. What can they do though? Why aren't we using that intel, along with that from social workers and parents, and doing something really meaningful to catch them young and turn them around?

Seriously

Have you not seen any programs in prisons

The idea that you will never ever have freedom have nothing to care about and just anger to deal with is a very difficult to manage

Also, I’d urge anyone who is Pro-death penalty to watch the Paradise Lost trilogy of documentaries.
It makes for truly grim viewing, and openly displays the utter shite show that is the “justice” system in Arkansas. In short: 3 teenage boys (your token heavy metal “weirdos”) were wrongfully convicted of the murders of three 8 year old boys in 1994. They spent 17 years in prison - the eldest one on death row.
They were eventually released in 2011, although the state have never formally exonerated them of crimes they clearly didn’t commit. There isn’t a single shred of DNA from any of the convicted boys anywhere in the bodies, the crime scene or any of the evidence found at the crime scene, and all three had watertight alibis for the night of the murders. The state didn’t care. It was a witch-hunt which almost ended up with the state-sanctioned murder of another young person.

@herculepoirot2 that's what I meant by me probably explaining it clumsily, of course humans and animals arent on the same level. What I was trying to illustrate wasnt in relation to situations that you describe, but taking your example: the continuous abuser who murders in cold blood... or the serial rapist or repeated child sexual abuser. what rehabilitation is there that would make it safe for that person to be considered no longer a danger?

Surely in that case you could argue that the best approach is to remove the risk to society rather than a). Eventually place society back at risk by giving parole, see venebals (though I appreciate difficulties with that case due to his age at the original offence). B). Making the offender suffer, which feels worse in some ways.

I'm actually not arguing for or against the death penalty, I think it's too complex for comprehension without serious research and consideration needed beyond a mumsnet post.

I don’t agree with the death penalty. I don’t think anyone should have a right to take another’s life.

I do however, wish that convicted criminals could be more useful to society. Either being put to work or used to test new drugs on etc
It takes such a huge amount of money to bring new pharmaceuticals to market.

@IntoValhalla I mentioned the West Memphis 3 case, it was my dad who got me into researching that, Paradise lost - I just have no words for. I think I've watched everything there is to watch and read about those 3 lads ( obviously grown now )
Aswell as the central park 5

They were children ! I'll say it again, frightening

i don't agree with it. Its open for error, its open for corruption and i am uncomfortable with the concept of the state being allowed to kill people - which crimes do they chose.

Discworld! Wow. Was thinking about that the other day. I used to play this discworld computer game with death that used to have me in hysterics. Was sooo funny. Wow. What a great memory.

Sorry. The above was in reply to a lady talking about death and discworld.

SparklyMagpie me too! I think I was about 15 when I watched the first documentary and it really shook me up for days afterwards - I was one of the “heavy metal weirdos” so it really struck a chord with me
I’ve kept up with all three of them since. Damien and Jason have grown into exceptional men considering what they’ve been subjected to. And Jesse’s current situation is just very very sad Last I heard, he still lives in the same trailer park where he was arrested, still works for his dad in the same car garage he worked st before, he barely leaves the trailer, and doesn’t own a phone or a computer because he’s terrified of the authorities not hauling him back to jail for no reason

meow1989

I think I prefer a society where we do actually consider rehabilitation to be possible, and realistic. If someone has a record in prison that suggests they understand the difference between right and wrong, and is able to explain what went wrong, and has served their time, then probation is the sensible next step. If someone has committed crimes that justify a true life sentence, without possibility of parole, they can still be rehabilitated on a moral level - they just have to stay in prison.

there are not any miscarriages of justice now it’s always proved with DNA in the USA at least
This is a dangerous untruth.